Late 15th century flag ideas

[Charlie_]

I'm in the progress of re-arranging what was a Game of Thrones project into a historical one - basically just giving them new flags to be honest.

The setting is small-scale conflicts across Europe in the latter half of the 15th century - border clashes, private wars, skirmishes as part of larger campaigns, etc. Most of the troops are 'neutral' and so can be assigned to different factions - distinct national troops (Burgundians, French, etc) may happen at a later date, but that's not what I'm talking about right now. There will be loads of different commanders with their own banners so I can mix it up for every game, not having to play the same show-down over and over.
The one 'faction' that will feature in most games though is an English mercenary company (basically somewhere to put all those longbowmen I have painted up already). But they can be employed by anyone, and can be pitted against anyone. Nice and flexible.
There is also scope for plenty of other mercenary companies.
I'm thinking right now I'm going to focus on the Holy Roman Empire - obscure German nobles fighting their own little private wars, with their own household troops and lots of mercenaries.

So I'm designing some flags. There is a fair bit of information about flags of this period out there, but a lot of it does seem quite confusing and at times contradictory.
Now I'm not looking for absolute historical accuracy, I just want things more or less right.
It's mostly the shapes of flags I'm puzzling over... I often hear that infantry flags are square and cavalry flags are forked.... And that a noble's personal banner should be square..... But there are loads of examples I've found that go against this (and of course they may be incorrect themselves!).
I do like the look of both square banners and long fork-tailed standards.
I have come across lots of really bizarre flag shapes as well, in particular Italian, Burgundian and Swiss ones it seems.
Also the flag sheets provided in the Perry Miniatures plastic box sets are very interesting, and have lots of these 'unusual' flags.

Ok, so some questions.....

- German personal banners. I have often seen them as rectangular rather than square, the long edge against the flagpole... Was this the rule in the HRE? Or was it just a trend there? In particular I've noticed most of the HRE banners in the Perry boxes are this shape. Would a mix of square and rectangular ones be a good idea for my Germans?

- Livery banners. I've come across these mostly when looking at the WOTR. As I understand it, they would be a simple flag with one of the noble's badges on one or two 'livery colours'.... And it seems specific nobles would often have loads of different badges they used. There would be lots of these handed out to their troops. Is this right? Would the badges always be things taken from their coat of arms? Were these always square? How do these relate to the swallow-tailed 'standards' I see plenty of in the WOTR? I'm thinking if I have a noble with his personal banner leading a unit or in a command position, other units under his command will have one of these livery banners each.

- Flags for my English mercenaries. I want one larger flag to accompany the captain, and a smaller one for each individual unit. I've decided on calling them The Company Of The Rose, their badge being a red rose 'stalked and leaved' on a white field. I'm thinking the units will have a small square 'livery banner' each with this design, and the company standard (with the commander, both mounted) will simply be a longer fork-tailed standard with the same design. Or should the company standard be something a bit more elaborate?

- I'd like to get some more long fork-tailed standards for my cavalry units... But as it's all minor nobles rather than national flags, I'm not sure what to use them for. Would cavalry livery flags be long standards rather than square infantry banners?

That's all the questions I have for now, but I will no doubt come up with some more that I'll put in this thread.

I'd love to hear any ideas, or knowledge you have to share, or links to more information on the subject.

In the next post I'll put up some of the flags I've just made...

[Charlie_]

Here's what I've got so far...

For some generic nobles:



The following are actually from my Game of Thrones project, from minor houses in that setting, but I like them so am still gonna use them. The first one is House Grell, and latter is a simplified version of House Bracken.



And here's the Company of the Rose... (they are in red and white livery)

Unit banners:



Company standard:

[Codsticker]

Those look very handy and generic.

[Breazer]

Looks pretty cool man. I'd love to see more of your minis too!

[Arlequín]

Some nice-looking ideas there! 

Flags, banners, badges and the like are a complicated topic, and what holds true in one country does not necessarily hold true in another, although 'trends' did tend to travel over time.

What I am getting about badges, in England at least, was that they were initially granted to a title when it was created by the King and then became hereditary. While the livery colours seem to be at the whim of the person concerned and could change whenever he felt like it, the badge was static. Where someone gained several titles, he was able to use any or all of the badges that came with them; so one of the Percies ended up with several to choose from, for example. The Earl of Warwick married into his title and so gained the Beauchamp bear and ragged staff badge by default. If you like, it's not a hundred miles from GoT, where a 'house' is instantly identifiable by its badge.

As for mercenaries, rebels and others, the use of an emblem seems far looser and one of personal choice. I imagine they would be thinking of 'brand identity' and so would look for something special just to them. In an age of illiteracy and the needs of battlefield identification, the simpler the design the better; your 'Company of the Rose' motif seems to be just the thing to me. Providing your local isn't the 'Slug and Lettuce', pub signs (excepting those with 'Arms' in the name) are good examples and often based on real life badges. Why 'The Red Lion' seems to be the most common I couldn't say.

I'm convinced that the trend for square infantry and pennon-style cavalry standards in the 16th Century, began in the 15th. Be wary of relying on the 'Burgundian Booty' flag collection the Swiss have, as they are not necessarily all from the same time period; many come from the time of Charles the Bold, but others seem to come from that of Dornach (and can be seen on the famous painting) - a lot can change in 20 years.   

[redrob]

How did you draw them? clip art? Freehand?

[Phillius]

Try these guys - www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_1.html

[Charlie_]

How did you draw them? clip art? Freehand?

I started with this heraldry design programme I found - Coat Of Arms Design Studio

It's free to use, but there is also a more complete version you can buy, which I did.
However though it has several different shield shapes included, it doesn't have a simple square flag, so I had to use it as a starting point and do some editing afterwards (I use GIMP, again a free programme).
The CoA Design Studio has a good library of heraldic symbols - not completely exhaustive, and some are better than others admittedly, but it's where all the ones I've posted here are from.
The ripples I added myself (took me a very long time to work out how to do them well).

What I am getting about badges, in England at least, was that they were initially granted to a title when it was created by the King and then became hereditary. While the livery colours seem to be at the whim of the person concerned and could change whenever he felt like it, the badge was static. Where someone gained several titles, he was able to use any or all of the badges that came with them; so one of the Percies ended up with several to choose from, for example. The Earl of Warwick married into his title and so gained the Beauchamp bear and ragged staff badge by default. If you like, it's not a hundred miles from GoT, where a 'house' is instantly identifiable by its badge.

Yes, that makes sense. I think I'll be giving a few of my nobles badges that will appear on unit banners under their command.

Be wary of relying on the 'Burgundian Booty' flag collection the Swiss have, as they are not necessarily all from the same time period

Thanks for the tip - I didn't realise that.

Looks pretty cool man. I'd love to see more of your minis too!

Here's a few little photos of some of them under some Game of Thrones heraldry (soon to be re-assigned roles as English and German mercenaries).











And here's some more flags....

A swan badge, which will be used by some noble or another - infantry and cavalry flags.





Instead of the plain red horse on yellow background shown above, I've gone for this, which I think is one of my favourites so far...



And this will be a cavalry pennon with the horse badge for a unit in the noble's household...



And some more personal banners, one of which is rectangular (in the apparently German style?)

[redrob]

Thanks Charlie.
The professional version is worth it I take it? I will be producing decals

English Mercenaries - cross of St George

Germans- take inspiration from the Banderia Prutenorum. Though be wary of the pictures some have been rendered in un-heraldic terms.You clearly know a bit about heraldry so it should be obvious. The Germans often added a Schwenkel - a trailing flyer to their flags Mostly square. seems to have been the trend until we get to the late 15th C
The Burgunderbeute is a conundrum. I worked with Rune who did http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_1.html and I think we probably got it right. In general anything with a cross raguly is later than Charles the bold and the two flags with rounded fly's are from Dornach. Krigspil is the best on-line source. However there are some interpretations which I don't agree with mainly them being 'un-heraldic'. For example a flag with and eagle displayed has the eagle rotated through 90 degrees so the head is next to the pole. This immediately breaks the rules of heraldry. Having said that I have seen original renderings of arms done like this so ...but I would go with the rules of heraldry everytime.
Long banners with tails were carried by horsemen. There doesn't seem to be any restrictions on this. Just add a tail and a border in what ever colours you wish (the heraldry rules don't always apply for some reason
Finally a personal banner bearing a nobles arms is usually going to be square or rectangular, a personal banner bearing allegories, statements intertwined initials etc will be long and forked.

[Arlequín]

I agree with much of that, but it is the verbal description that defines a coat of arms, not any visual depiction.

How coats of arms are displayed on a banner are different to on a shield. Banners are always depicted with the pole or 'hoist' on the left. Animals or humans always face or 'respect' the hoist, so will face left on the 'proper' side (like on a shield), but will face right on the obverse.

Halving and quartering always follows the description, whichever side of the banner we are talking however. So a red/white design would have red closest to the pole on one side and white closest on the other. Only the facing direction of living creatures changes, not their position in the design.

Standards don't follow the rules and apart from any writing, are a mirror image of the opposite side and again 'living creatures' will still 'respect the hoist' in any case.

The rectangular 'knight' banner seems to be how someone who was entitled to a coat of arms, but who was not a hereditary knight (i.e. a gentry family), would display their arms.

Schwenkels are a topic of their own. Some say it's a sign of heroism, others a sign of disgrace. As the Emperor's own battleflag bore one when his normal one did not, might just highlight that the bearer was at war. Another option might be that they were a holdover from the crusades and were added to show the bearer was committed to a crusade and should be granted safe passage. Some can be seen with a small cross near the fly, so that might have some legs.

Alternatively it may have started as the sign of a crusader and evolved to show either that the bearer was at war, or on imperial service (and at war). I'm sure someone can offer an alternative interpretation.

Your mileage might vary, but while the Cross of St. George seems the archetypical English symbol, it only seems to appear in English 'royal' armies (i.e. the King was with it), otherwise men seem to have fought under their captain's standards and in their colours.

Across Europe the 'English Flag' meant lots of things to lots of people; in Italy for example, it divided Guelphs from Ghibbelines (the others used a white cross on a red field) and might get you a dagger in a back alley just for wearing it. If the story is true, English ships first used the flag from 1190, to gain protection in the Mediterranean from their Genoese allies.

For me then, their 'company' badge and colours, or that of their employer, would be more valid; although for Milanese and Genovese employed men, the 'English Flag' is the same as theirs in any case.

[redrob]

Some good points there Arlequin especially re  English flags abroad. I think I would agree they would march under their employers flag.
 As to the un-heraldic nature of some banners. I stick to my point that lots of modern depictions are just wrong. For example the banner of the Hochmeister of the Teutonic order is drawn by Stanisław Durink hanging with pole at the top. This is correct. It fits with the heraldic description. However what has happened is that ignorant folk have assumed that it is a banner and have reproduced it with the hoist on the left which changes the shape and layout of the flag.The verbal description states quite clearly that it is a Golfannon so the flag should hang downwards from a crossbar. Befitting a religious organisation. This error has snowballed somewhat with every 'flag producer' repeating this mistake.There are others too. Some Polish royal banners are also shown with the Eagles with the heads at the hoist. That's just wrong. Why would anyone have flags made which were wrong? folk would be up in arms if a picture turned up with a Napoleonic flag fixed sideways or upside down?
The other bugbear about the Teutonic knights is the cross fleury which appears on reproduced shields and banners. The cross fleury did not come into use until 1450 (at the earliest) but that didnt stop numpty's like Turnbull stating categorically that it is accurate for the Grunwald period...It's lazy scholarship

[Charlie_]

I made some edits to my Rose company standard, giving it a gold border and changing it to a tapering shape.

However I'm wondering if the new shape (with shorter 'tails') leaves too much empty space?
Any ideas on what I could use to fill the space? Or is it fine?
Or are there some examples of this tapering shape still with long tails? (I used the dimensions from flags in the Perry boxes).

[tomrommel1]

very nice designs indeed

[Arlequín]

I see what you mean, but it might just be the emptiness goading you to fill it. I wouldn't overdo it though if you decide to fill some of it in, it's meant to be visible for what it is after all. 

A motto or some decoration like trailing rose 'vines' (the right word escapes me), or crossed lances etc. etc., might fill some of the void if it bothers you overly. A few gold coins scattered on the field might be appropriate for mercenaries.



 

[Breazer]

It looks great like this Charlie, what you want to do is make sure the flag itself is having some ripples. That way it won't look empty either.


your models awesome btw. Really cool to see.