Tolkien Orc Kitbash p.26 - More orcses painted, Precious

[Bearwoodman]

I agree with James Morris! Great modelling and painting, and a a discussion that although I am unable to contribute to, I am am very interested in following! Looking forward to more!

[Blackwolf]

Beautiful Richard , and inspiring.

And on the question of long bows; all bows that are of one piece construction roughly corresponding to the height of the user are self/ long bows. Therefore a Hobbit using a bow ,perhaps one piece of Elm would be using a long bow ,it is semantic,rather than a technological description. Of course Yew is one of the best woods for making such bows, combined with training could be devastating. Most of Western Europe used long bows as opposed to composite bows very early on,certainly as early as the Bronze Age if not before.
So Orcs with long bows? Without a doubt, certainly much more likely than composite bows. Phew!

[Hammers]

Not sure if that's quite right (as Plynkes has noted above):

And they do engage in art:

As for the Isengarders' bows, Aragorn does say that those Orcs' grear is more like that of Men. But in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen, Tolkien indicates that the Isengarder Orcs were more technologically advanced than the Dunlendings: specifically, the only mail made in Isengard was made by the Orcs for their own uses.

Funny, I used exactly that quote from 'The Hobbit' to form my opinion, but I did not exactly express it right.

The whole point with orcs, which I think I could find textual reference to, is that they are perverted as a mockery of elves and  humans. They also do everything as a perversion of what (we consider) is beautiful or artful. They take whatever exist, just like Morgoth, and make crude copies or ill-willed pastiches of it. They may be clever while doing it, but it is all to casue damage to the original, creative idea. The idea that an orc should take real pride in his/her creative work is anathema to me, whatever 'creativity' they can muster comes from the ill will and destruction they can cause with it. We do these days claim  that everything and anything is art, but in a more traditional sense, as in creating something original, beautiful, harmonious or carrying profound meaning, orcs are not artful.

I thought the longbow was a good example how orcs 'get others to make to their design' because I know the making of longbows is a craft which requires art, precision and care (also to shoot, but I suppose that is a good example on just how well disciplined Saruman's uruk-hai were). Therefore, in my mind, I find it likely that Saruman had some skilled human bowyers in his employ. Honestly, *someone* had to be smoking the Longbottom leaf and eating the salted pork Merry and Pippin found in the chapter "Floatsam and Jetsam". Sure, tobacco and  processed red meat is the pinnacle of evil these days, but I am purty sure Tolkien did not have orcs in mind consuming it back in his day.

[Hobgoblin]

Funny, I used exactly that quote from 'The Hobbit' to form my opinion, but I did not exactly express it right.

The whole point with orcs, which I think I could find textual reference to, is that they are perverted as a mockery of elves and  humans. They also do everything as a perversion of what (we consider) is beautiful or artful. They take whatever exist, just like Morgoth, and make crude copies or ill-willed pastiches of it. They may be clever while doing it, but it is all to casue damage to the original, creative idea. The idea that an orc should take real pride in his/her creative work is anathema to me, whatever 'creativity' they can muster comes from the ill will and destruction they can cause with it. We do these days claim  that everything and anything is art, but in a more traditional sense, as in creating something original, beautiful, harmonious or carrying profound meaning, orcs are not artful.

Right - I see what you mean: creative, yes, but only in a destructive or mocking way (as when they replace the head of the king's statue).

I thought the longbow was a good example how orcs 'get others to make to their design' because I know the making of longbows is a craft which requires art, precision and care (also to shoot, but I suppose that is a good example on just how well disciplined Saruman's uruk-hai were). Therefore, in my mind, I find it likely that Saruman had some skilled human bowyers in his employ. Honestly, *someone* had to be smoking the Longbottom leaf and eating the salted pork Merry and Pippin found in the chapter "Floatsam and Jetsam". Sure, tobacco and  processed red meat is the pinnacle of evil these days, but I am purty sure Tolkien did not have orcs in mind consuming it back in his day.

Good point about the supplies! As far as the bows go, I wonder. One of the orcs in Mordor has a bow "of horn" - so presumably a sophisticated composite bow. I'd have though that those need even more precision and care to make than a longbow (arguable either way, I suppose, but both are complex processes).

I'd guess that JRRT's intention was just to show that there was something unusually Mannish about these orcs, as that's the thread that's pursued all the way through Helm's Deep, Flotsam and Jetsam and The Scouring of the Shire: there are Mannish orcs (the Uruk-hai) and Orcish men (the half-orcs). But who knows (and that's before we get into the 'death of the author' and all that!)?

[darthfozzywig]

Nice work.

[jamesmanto]

Those are quite lovely in an orcish sort of way.

[Bloggard]

Lovely to see that boardgame cover - great game and a few fond memories there ...

the capt.'s kitbashes are, of course, superb. Absolutely top-notch. Very admiring and envious of such vision and skill - all I can do to put plastic kit figures together 'normally'.

But one reason I haven't been checking this thread 'till now is an anticipation of much debate of what is 'correct' etc for the depiction of orcs, and the 'reality' of their culture, ffs.
Really, I wouldn't go there. Make 'em green, pink or whatever you like, and go some way in avoiding the can of worms that is Tolkien's views on matters race and culture.
Having read up on this again recently (as a devotee of the books of old), and, for example, happening upon his written comments regarding 'dwarves' and human models for them... no, really ... don't go there.
Make it as fantastical as you like, and enjoy his setting in those very elastic terms, as far as I'm concerned.

anyway, apologies for getting all 'serious' on the fantasy board - and the kitbashed figures are indeed brilliant; the main thing.

[Plynkes]

Hehe, I agree Bloggard. Both Tolkien and Song of Ice and Fire threads always do tend to have a lot of "No, no, no, no, no! They're doing it wrong! I've read the books and my interpretation is correct" type of comments. I should know, I do it myself. This very week I have been painting a LOTR figure, and constantly muttering and complaining to myself about its depiction in the movies, even though it is a very nice figure. 


But as long as it is kept civil and friendly, it can be an interesting diversion, and does no real harm.

[Hammers]

Lovely to see that boardgame cover - great game and a few fond memories there ...

the capt.'s kitbashes are, of course, superb. Absolutely top-notch. Very admiring and envious of such vision and skill - all I can do to put plastic kit figures together 'normally'.

But one reason I haven't been checking this thread 'till now is an anticipation of much debate of what is 'correct' etc for the depiction of orcs, and the 'reality' of their culture, ffs.
Really, I wouldn't go there. Make 'em green, pink or whatever you like, and go some way in avoiding the can of worms that is Tolkien's views on matters race and culture.
Having read up on this again recently (as a devotee of the books of old), and, for example, happening upon his written comments regarding 'dwarves' and human models for them... no, really ... don't go there.
Make it as fantastical as you like, and enjoy his setting in those very elastic terms, as far as I'm concerned.

anyway, apologies for getting all 'serious' on the fantasy board - and the kitbashed figures are indeed brilliant; the main thing.

To me it is not a can of worms. I find it a rather fruitful discussion which have an impact on how I paint my miniatures.

[Alan Mercer]

Very well done. Your painting really brings out the character. I might have to re-visit mine and tidy them up a bit.

[Argonor]

I somehow missed the beginning of this thread, but as I am also on a Middle-Earth spree (atm shortly interrupted by trying to get a pirate gang ready for the end of the month), trying to get some armies for Oathmark tuned right, and planning to mix some Oathmark Goblins in with my GW Orcs, I have to keep an eye on this! 

[Captain Blood]

Orc number 2 has a coat of paint...

He's made from an Oathmark goblin body and face, but with a Victrix Saxon nasal helm on top. The arms are from the Oathmark goblin set, but with a Perry HYW falchion hand surgically attached. The shield is a gripping Beast Viking/Saxon round shield. Green stuff fur cape.









And here he is, with orc no. 1
Not quite Shagrat and Gorbag, but close relatives... 



I'm picking away at these between other projects...
Only ten more to go

[Hobgoblin]

Excellent - that helmet works really well. And great colours as ever!

[gamer Mac]

Great kitbashing as well as painting

[scatterbrains]

That is beautiful, the fur Cape and paint job really takes the miniature to a new level!