So I’m starting a 15th Century Swiss army?

[Tim Haslam]

I’ve got hold of a couple of boxes of Perry “European Mercenaries” in plastic.
Plus I’m looking at what’s on offer to support this lot from the Perry metal range too.

Any other Swiss specific manufacturers I’m missing?
I remember Front Rank did some figures that could be used, but these may be too big next to the Perry models?

[Doom Beard 78]

the obvious choice is the Swiss range from Foundry

[bigredbat]

Some of the Foundry range work, although I found them just a bit on the short side for my tastes- but others get great results from them as they are in active poses, and make good front ranks. I have a bunch of Foundry Swiss going cheap, if you want them.

Also some of the old Grenadier castings are quite nice- crossbows and arquebusiers- useful for variety. They can be found on eBay, they are still being cast.

Other than those, I didn't find much of use, which is a pity.

[bigredbat]

...oh and not all of the plastic mercenaries make brilliant Swiss, I don't think the Swiss used quilted jackets much (at all?).  I used those for other projects.

[Tim Haslam]

Ok, you got me,
What’s on offer Simon?
I’ll pm you.

[Atheling]

Tim,

I sent for the Perry Swiss EA1 Unarmoured Swiss halberdiers/pike men marching with a few head swaps for the back ranks:


The Perry Swiss Command mixed in with head swaps for the erm.... command.

I have also done a lot of head swaps for the medium and front rankers using the following packs:
EA2 Helmeted halberdiers/pikemen advancing, weapon held at 45 degrees
EA3 Armoured halberdiers/pikemen advancing, weapon held at 45 degrees
EA4 Helmeted halberdiers/pikemen attacking with levelled weapon
EA5 Armoured halberdiers/pikemen attacking with levelled weapon

Finally I have mixed in some of the rather lovely Steel Fist LM 10. Swiss front-rankers for more heavily armoured types at the fore of the unit.

I'd post more pics but I only have another sixteen pike painted as, I'm basing the army on wither Fornovo (1495) or Cerginola (1503) and want to mix up the liveries with normal clothing when it comes to basing (the Swiss apparently did not don their Canton colours- almost certainly an overdone feature in Swiss armies anyway at said battles)

BTW, the Foundry Swiss are still exceptional miniatures and well worth considering.

[Tim Haslam]

Thanks for those tips matey.
So from a painting perspective, don’t over do the canton colours?
Mix them up in different units? Or specific cantons in one unit?

This army will very likely be used in WAB, so figures will be based on a 20mm frontage.
Plus the army needs to look historical in deployment, as good as I can get it for WAB!

I’m thinking units of 24 or 30 pike, six figures wide, and sub units of billmen, in 12 or 18’s again six wide.
When set up directly behind the pike units, you get the look of a deep column.
So I would use the billmen as a kind of sub unit?

[Atheling]

Thanks for those tips matey.
So from a painting perspective, don’t over do the canton colours?

Generally, even during the Burgundian Wars, the Canton liveries are almost certainly over played. Though, having said that, they do look great and I wouldn't want to start getting didactic about toy soldiers.

Mix them up in different units? Or specific cantons in one unit?

Mt reference was actually for the two battles that I'm painting my Swiss up for, Fornovo and Ceignola. Thanks to the work of Vincenzo Alberici and Massimo Predonzani in their recent The Italian Wars: The Expedition of Charles VIII into Italy and the Battle of Fornovo
it is apparent that the Swiss were not gathered together from specific individual Cantons and were very likely the equivalent of the Free companies so often associated with the HYW.

This army will very likely be used in WAB, so figures will be based on a 20mm frontage.
Plus the army needs to look historical in deployment, as good as I can get it for WAB!

WAB would be just fine. I would certainly consider including some larger bases for the front of the Massed Pike formation; you could have a little play around with some vignette type stuff if that takes your fancy?

I’m thinking units of 24 or 30 pike, six figures wide, and sub units of billmen, in 12 or 18’s again six wide.
When set up directly behind the pike units, you get the look of a deep column.
So I would use the billmen as a kind of sub unit?

Halberdiers I think from AoC but the same thing. I've never used the Swiss in WAB so cannot really help. Any tactical advice I gave would be purely speculative. mind, any tactical advice I ever give should usually be ignored 

[Doom Beard 78]

Back in ye olde days I used to play a 2500 point Swiss army - essentially you need large blocks of pikemen, ( at 15 points a figure you can usually get 3 x30 or at a push 3 x40 pike )   supported by small units of Halbadiers ( 15-18)  and expendable skirmish screens of light crossbow. 

The Swiss have are an aggressive infantry army and rely on rushing forward and routing enemy infantry.  You don't have to worry about cavalry charging the front of the pike block and you can generally maul through most infantry. Where he pike struggle is against heavily armoured infantry as the heavy armour allows them to grind their way through.  Men at arms on foot with partial plate armour and a 3+ save are tough to budge and will grind you out.   Against those you need to use the halberdiers to hit the flank.

Against missile heavy armies or artillery lines you need those skirmish screens. 

The mounted crossbow are fairy rubbish and achieve little- at best they can try to march block parts of the enemy line but other than that are not worth the points.

In Wab 1.0 you can deploy in echelon with the exposed flank of a unit covered by halbdiers or another pike block .   If the lead block is charged and you lose combat , the stubborn ability allows them to hold while you can bring up the unit covering their flank. WAB 2.0 changed stubborn so this tactic no longer works.

light cavalry armies are a pain in the proverbial to deal with.  However, against in period opponants the Swiss can be very effective.  There is little combined arms finesse to contend with.

[Tim Haslam]

Thanks guys.

Lol, I’m not worried about it being too effective.
Just want it to look good.
My OCD wants all equal units, but from what I’ve read of the famous battles you tend to get a big block with slightly smaller supports?

Anyhow I’ve got to finish my Numidians first, then paint a whole Saxon force for Mr Athelings dark age event in the new year, THEN I can start the Swiss!

I’m more than happy to keep talking about organising and painting this WAB force though?

Initially I’ll be organising it around version 1 of the rules using the Age of Chivalry list.
Agreed some multi basing on the front ranks to make it look cool.

[Tim Haslam]

Oh, and 2000pts.

Rough, first draft,
3 X 24 pike
2 X 18 halberders
3 X 9 skirmishers

[Charlie_]

I sent for the Perry Swiss EA1 Unarmoured Swiss halberdiers/pike men marching with a few head swaps for the back ranks:

The Perry Swiss Command mixed in with head swaps for the erm.... command.

I have also done a lot of head swaps for the medium and front rankers using the following packs:
EA2 Helmeted halberdiers/pikemen advancing, weapon held at 45 degrees
EA3 Armoured halberdiers/pikemen advancing, weapon held at 45 degrees
EA4 Helmeted halberdiers/pikemen attacking with levelled weapon
EA5 Armoured halberdiers/pikemen attacking with levelled weapon

Finally I have mixed in some of the rather lovely Steel Fist LM 10. Swiss front-rankers for more heavily armoured types at the fore of the unit.

I did more or less the same thing, using the Perry metals with some Steel Fist in the front rank. There are also a few carefully-chosen Foundry sculpts and some other conversions - it's mostly the Perry metals with lots of headswaps to avoid clones.

The Foundry Swiss range is a bit hit-and-miss for me. As noted above they a just about noticeably shorter than Perry, some of the clothing detail is a little suspect in places, and the range of poses is a bit odd. But a few of them I really like, and others I am having a go at converting in various ways.

The Perry metal pikemen/halberdiers has always seemed to me to be an incomplete range which needed a few more packs - for example they have a pack with shouldered weapons in Swiss headgear, and one with  angled weapons in helmets.... where's the one with angled weapons and swiss heads, and lowered weapons with swiss heads, and armoured with shouldered weapons, etc? And annoyingly 4 of the armoured ones with angled weapons are in odd hunched over poses.... To make a large unit bases on these packs, avoiding duplicates, and getting them all to rank up closely, has required lots of headswaps, conversions, and the odd sculpt from other ranges, and the result i am very pleased with. Just wish the Perry shad released a few more packs to work with!!!

If you are going the weapons lowered route like this, I would recommend having the front two ranks based in group rather than on 20mm singles, to make ranking up much easier. This is what i did (I also used an MDF movement tray), though technically they are one figure per 20mm square as if for WAB. The rear ranks are grouped three or four to a base but could easily have been on single 20mm squares.

[Tim Haslam]

Those look great!
Some good ideas in there.

[commissarmoody]

Some of these guys will make nice additions to your perry figs. https://www.steelfistminiatures.com/product/lm10.-swiss-front-rankers./

[Atheling]

Some of these guys will make nice additions to your perry figs. https://www.steelfistminiatures.com/product/lm10.-swiss-front-rankers./

Charlies work above contains some very good examples of these. This is also what I have done (as mentioned above ) . Unfortunately, I only got as far as painting 24 I was "distracted" by the TAG Spanish- all part of the same project though so all is well