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Author Topic: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?  (Read 2810 times)

Offline SPQR7070

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Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2021, 12:47:44 PM »
The most common consensus I see about TMWWBK house rules is that the pinning system is too harsh and needs to be house ruled. Basically, taking even a single casualty has a good chance to pin a unit, which makes them unable to do any other action than Rally next turn - but since they are sitting there immobile theyre pretty likely to get shot again, thus pinning them all over again...


So units end up in a loop where they can never get unpinned and its oretty frustrating. Luckily the solution is pretty simple, the same author wrote another Osprey book called Rebels and Patriots focused on North American 18th and 19th century combat that is very similar but uses a three step pinning system. If I remember correctly the first pin reduces your movements and shooting dice by half, second pin forces you to rally, third pin you flee the field.

Online Diablo Jon

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Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2021, 01:35:06 PM »
The thing about the TMWWBKs pinning system is it's quite historical justified natives who actually made it close enough, to gun armed opponents, to stab them with their pointy sticks seem to be a rarity. Modern firearms in the hands of European trained troops were deadly.

Having said that when playing a game the guy with the Natives needs to feel he is in with a chance. My own thinking is that using the optional rules for limited ammo in the book are they way to go when fighting Europeans Vs Natives. That way regulars can't just blast away all game but instead have to pick the best use of their limited volleys.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 02:22:29 PM by Diablo Jon »

Offline Plynkes

  • The Royal Bastard
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Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2021, 01:44:12 PM »
I had trouble with it too, to an extent. Don't mind regulars with modern rifles pinning natives (that's what they're meant to do), but crappy untrained Swahili Arabs keeping tribesmen pinned down for half the game with their shonky muskets just didn't seem quite right.


With Cat-Like Tread
Upon our prey we steal...

Offline Umra Khan

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Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2021, 01:44:41 PM »
...So units end up in a loop where they can never get unpinned and its oretty frustrating. Luckily the solution is pretty simple, the same author wrote another Osprey book called Rebels and Patriots focused on North American 18th and 19th century combat that is very similar but uses a three step pinning system. If I remember correctly the first pin reduces your movements and shooting dice by half, second pin forces you to rally, third pin you flee the field.

probably this sound better  :)

I'm not very experienced in this rule TMWWBK  but seeing videos on youtube it seems possible to shoot through another unit 'as long as' a single  figure has free view of the target;  the distances are measured from the figure more ' close even if much of the unit' that shoots may be out of distance .... and last but not least to shoot you do not need to have the front of the figures who want to fire at the target and all the unit can fire...
well if these are correct aspects of the rule I do not find it at all interesting, preventing the development of formations and historical deployment of soldiers.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:48:51 PM by Umra Khan »

Offline Calumma

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  • Posts: 118
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2021, 02:12:56 PM »
Ive considered modifying the MWWBKs pinning rule to give pinned units the benefit of soft cover. Think of it as units diving to the ground when shot and trying to keep out of sight. Means units are less likely to get continuously blasted at longer ranges especially by poorly armed troops. Regulars will still prove effective with modern rifles though.

Offline giorgio

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Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2021, 02:18:28 PM »
I'm sorry Umra but it seems that you haven't  digested yet my pathans jezails well aimed bullets since last battle...

Offline Umra Khan

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Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2021, 02:21:38 PM »
 quote author=giorgio link=topic=132322.msg1681139#msg1681139 date=1626963508]
I'm sorry Umra but it seems that you haven't  digested yet my pathans jezails well aimed bullets since last battle...
[/quote]

 lol lol lol
 >:( >:( >:(
don't remember me ... even if then it was you just playing.... ;)

Offline SPQR7070

  • Student
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2021, 02:40:46 PM »
The thing about the TMWWBKs pinning system is it's quite historical justified natives who actually made it close enough, to gun armed opponents, to stab them with their pointy sticks seem to be a rarity. Modern firearms in the hands of European trained troops were deadly.

Having said that when playing a game the guy with the Natives needs to feel he is in with a chance. My own thinking is that using the optional rules for limited ammo in the book are they way to go when fighting Europeans Vs Natives. That way regulars can't just blast away all game but instead have to pick the best use of their limited volleys.

I dont so much have a problem with gunfire pinning a unit, its the fact that they then just stand there completely passive to receive more with no other options. As a player it also takes away all your agency - like instead of having to make the decision of rallying now but potentially getting pinned again or falling back/pressing on - your only option is to stay where you are ( in full view of the enemy) and try to rally.

As mentioned elsewhere this rule applied to European troops as well, so taking even a single casualty can cause a feedback loop where your regular infantry stand there immobile taking casualties without ever firing back.


Offline SPQR7070

  • Student
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2021, 02:55:05 PM »
probably this sound better  :)

I'm not very experienced in this rule TMWWBK  but seeing videos on youtube it seems possible to shoot through another unit 'as long as' a single  figure has free view of the target;  the distances are measured from the figure more ' close even if much of the unit' that shoots may be out of distance .... and last but not least to shoot you do not need to have the front of the figures who want to fire at the target and all the unit can fire...
well if these are correct aspects of the rule I do not find it at all interesting, preventing the development of formations and historical deployment of soldiers.

In TMWWBK units do block line of sight and if an enemy unit is within charging distance of your firing unit they must target them and not any more distant enemies. This means you can deploy in echelon and let the front units shield the back units from fire.

Units in skirmish order are not considered to have a facing and can move/fire in any direction freely.

Units in close order and artillery can only fire within their front arc.

Offline JBaumal

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 530
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2021, 09:21:38 PM »
I shall throw my hat in for TSATF! The Sword And The Flame is very well supported by a huge community of gamers that have been playing it since the mid 1980s. There is a digital PDF version and a multitude of period specific supplements for many different theaters, periods, and Campaigns. However only the core set is really needed for any colonial battles. Both the author, the late Larry Brom as well as a many of his friends and colleagues of colonial campaigns made variations for individual wars and campaigns to give a specific feel or unit specific data for say the Boxer Rebellion, The Indian Mutiny, the US Indian Wars, Texas War of independence, Lawrence of Arabia, etc, etc, etc Just to reiterate you only need the core set and knowledge of a period to alter the movement rate, hit tables, and moral roles of the various units and forces. The colonial hive are always willing to help in these matters. Check out my blog on unit cards for TSATF to see what I mean about changing the individual unit stats.

Heres an example star card for a unit.


https://sgtguinness.blogspot.com/2017/?m=0

The one thing that I do really like about TMWWBK is the commander stats which either helps, hinders, or has no effect in the actions of their troops. This same aspect can easily be converted to TSATF by adding a +1 or -1 to various rolls of a unit for movement, firing, melee, and morale based on a commanders skill or attribute.

One thing to remember, HAVE FUN!!!!

Online Diablo Jon

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  • Posts: 1007
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2021, 10:03:28 AM »
I had trouble with it too, to an extent. Don't mind regulars with modern rifles pinning natives (that's what they're meant to do), but crappy untrained Swahili Arabs keeping tribesmen pinned down for half the game with their shonky muskets just didn't seem quite right.

Personally I think the vast majority of irregular infantry in any darkest African setting should be classed as poor shots and only hit on 6s.

Having said that there are quite a few instances of even European led forces being pinned down by Arabs especially when the Arabs are occupying stockades.

Offline Calumma

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  • Posts: 118
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2021, 01:23:42 PM »
Personally I think the vast majority of irregular infantry in any darkest African setting should be classed as poor shots and only hit on 6s.

I give the majority of my African irregulars antiquated muskets which means they have a maximum range of just 12. Anything above short range (6) requires 2 hits. Better trained troops tend to just sit back and pick them off at range.

I do also allow tribal Bunduki with antiquated muskets that are poor shots (so hit on a 6). They are unenthusiastic but when they do manage to get a shot off, at least there are 16 of them!

Online Diablo Jon

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  • Posts: 1007
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2021, 05:26:47 PM »
I give the majority of my African irregulars antiquated muskets which means they have a maximum range of just 12. Anything above short range (6) requires 2 hits. Better trained troops tend to just sit back and pick them off at range.

I do also allow tribal Bunduki with antiquated muskets that are poor shots (so hit on a 6). They are unenthusiastic but when they do manage to get a shot off, at least there are 16 of them!


Makes sense when you consider
A) The general poor state of trade muskets in Africa and the poor quality of the gunpowder traded with Africans
B) The general African predilection for over loading their muskets with said  gunpowder and using anything from bits of metal to stones as ammo.
C) The almost complete lack of training among African tribal warriors so they fired high and often from the hip.
D) the psychological effect of a loud bang and a cloud of smoke seems to have been just as important as actual physical damage caused by guns in inter tribal African warfare.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 05:28:26 PM by Diablo Jon »

Offline Peter

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  • No place to run - no place to hide
Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2021, 06:34:12 PM »
Does anyone know the rules of Bjrn Triumph & Tragedy.
I've always loved these rules.



Offline Plynkes

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Re: Suggestions for Colonial skirmish games?
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2021, 07:17:40 PM »
Indeed, Peter. Don't worry, they've already been mentioned.

Although largely forgotten by all but a select few and relegated to the dusty top shelf of gamers book collections there is a real gem to be found if you look hard enough.

Triumph & Tragedy

Most fun, playable and adaptable set of Colonial/Pulp rules published. Others mentioned here are all good games (especially Congo) but T&T is still the one to get.


Played them myself for a long time. Been trying out other things lately simply because I fancied a change.




 

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