Hivemind help with the Wars of the Roses retinue choices

[rivers3162]

For the Lancastrians, there are a few families who were pretty staunch in their loyalties whose livery colours would be useful for a number of battles; the Beauforts, Cliffords and Tudors spring to mind. The Percies too as they can be used for Bosworth.

On the Yorkist side the main ones would probably be Edward IV and the Nevilles (Fauconberg, Salisbury, Warwick). Gloucester/Richard III would also be a good one and you could use white Yorkist roses as livery badges for more mileage. In terms of other nobles, the Howards and Herberts were Yorkist and would do service for multiple battles, as would Lord Hastings

Forgot about the Scrope family too, who were pretty ardent Yorkists, supporting Richard II at Bosworth and even Lincoln in 1487.

[Atheling]

I’ve used the citadel six livery badges, and they are small decals. They work pretty well, but can be a bit fragile.

Do you mind if I ask, are Citadel Six waterslide or rub on Fred?

[fred]

Waterslide  (I’m pretty sure - its been a while since I used them)

[George1863]

@Atheling

'Free' beats 'cheap,' mate - particularly when someone is starting out in the era.

[George1863]

@Atheling

PS. 'Seriously....'

[MaleGriffin]

Once again, thanks for all the advice.

Pete’s Flags are outstanding - only for sale via eBay - but he has a good selection of flag sheets for assorted WOTR nobles. Might not be a bad place to start, if you want your armies to look great under gaily streaming banners and fluttering flags. Pick the lords with the best looking banners!

I also had a wonderful pdf which gave all the known main participants, their active dates and which battles they fought in, and their livery colours. Extremely useful. Except I can’t find it now on my tablet…   

I agree about Pete's Flags, but I'm also looking into Little Big Men, Freezywater, CitadelSix because I'd like to do the badges too. I'm even looking into designing and printing my own livery badges.

I'm pretty sure I have the pdf you are talking about and I put it into a spreadsheet so I could manipulate the data i.e. dividing them into Yorkist and Lancastrians or listed by which battles or active at the same period etc.

[rampantlion]

I think that the Tawny and Vert (orange and green) looks fantastic on the figures. 

[Atheling]

@Atheling

'Free' beats 'cheap,' mate - particularly when someone is starting out in the era.

@Atheling

PS. 'Seriously....'

George, I was merely trying to answer with the best quality response I could manage and make no apology for it.

I stand by my suggestions; I suppose it all depends on how much research one wants to do at the end of the day.

[George1863]

@Atheling

Given that apart from about 40 of the major participants, livery is unknown, my remark was intended as a quip not a jibe. I am sure we can all think of companies with a product to sell who seek to establish an 'orthodoxy' in a particular area of our great hobby. I am not suggesting that Freezywater do this, but others have and do. I will give the example of Sir Robert Brackenbury, among Richard III's most loyal supporters: by Bosworth he was a captain in the militias of Kent, Gloucestershire and Northamptonshire; he was a body-servant of the King and Constable of the Tower; almost certainly he was also a captain in the City militia as well being entitled to the livery of his family and possibly that of the company of Calais, having served there in his youth. At Bosworth, he might have worn the livery of the lord lieutenant of any of three counties, or royal livery, or the pre-Beefeater livery of the Tower guards, or of whichever City livery company he belonged to; or personal livery or that of Calais (the least likely). Brackenbury was not a knight-banneret and so certainly fought under the royal banner; but what colour to paint his miniature is a field of speculation. I suspect that the lower down the social scale you go, the range of possible liveries increases rather than reduces, since that is the nature of 'bastard feudalism.'

So personal research is really the best way to go, I think, given that your own 'best guess' is more convincing to you than someone else's 'best guess.' I didn't like your 'seriously...' response but I haven't come here for a ruck. No hard feelings, I hope.

 

[Atheling]

@Atheling

Given that apart from about 40 of the major participants, livery is unknown, my remark was intended as a quip not a jibe. I am sure we can all think of companies with a product to sell who seek to establish an 'orthodoxy' in a particular area of our great hobby. I am not suggesting that Freezywater do this, but others have and do. I will give the example of Sir Robert Brackenbury, among Richard III's most loyal supporters: by Bosworth he was a captain in the militias of Kent, Gloucestershire and Northamptonshire; he was a body-servant of the King and Constable of the Tower; almost certainly he was also a captain in the City militia as well being entitled to the livery of his family and possibly that of the company of Calais, having served there in his youth. At Bosworth, he might have worn the livery of the lord lieutenant of any of three counties, or royal livery, or the pre-Beefeater livery of the Tower guards, or of whichever City livery company he belonged to; or personal livery or that of Calais (the least likely). Brackenbury was not a knight-banneret and so certainly fought under the royal banner; but what colour to paint his miniature is a field of speculation. I suspect that the lower down the social scale you go, the range of possible liveries increases rather than reduces, since that is the nature of 'bastard feudalism.'

Not just Bastard Feudalism but across most of the spectrum of what we think we know about the Late Middle Ages. It's all very much guess work except where we have very clear solid evidence, which is seldom.

So personal research is really the best way to go, I think, given that your own 'best guess' is more convincing to you than someone else's 'best guess.' I didn't like your 'seriously...' response but I haven't come here for a ruck. No hard feelings, I hope.

No none at all. We're all adults here

BTW, I would say that personal research, hopefully stretching beyond just the internet, is always the best way to go and certainly the most satisfying. But, going back to Malegriffin's original question, the Freezywater books are the most accessible sources to be starting out with ergo my suggestion