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Author Topic: Epic thoughts...  (Read 3802 times)

Offline Major_Gilbear

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2022, 11:09:58 AM »
Epic "scale" has changed a lot over the years, not least because when it started the 40k models were themselves smaller. The "6mm" really just relates to the overall notional height of the infantry figures and not much more. Each broad category of infantry, vehicles, super-heavy vehicles, titans, and terrain (mainly the various buildings GW made over the years) all had their own scale that differed. The titans were the most reduced in size from what they "should" be, followed by the super-heavies. I don't really know about the buildings, as these seemed to vary a fair bit. Then, as various editions wound on over the years and models got re-sculpted, the sizes of each figure relative to the others in the game changed some more!  lol
At the very end of Epic scale figures being made, when FW were making things for E:A, the main sculptor for the range assumed that current 40k figures were 30mm high, and Epic ones were officially 6mm high, leaving them in a 40k-to-Epic conversion of 1:5 or 20%. Thus when FW made their Epic figures, they were always 1:5 scale copies of their 40k counterparts, which resulted in some of the FW stuff having wildly different sizes from earlier equivalent Epic models...  o_o

When the re-boot for the recent/current Adeptus Titanicus came about, they apparently printed some test models using the 40k-scale FW models (since they had the digital model files for those already), and did these at a variety of sizes. The official reason that "8mm" was chosen from among the different sizes they tried was because at that size the titans were big enough to see all details including weapons fairly clearly from the other side of the table, whilst still being small enough that having 6-8 models on the table wouldn't make weapon ranges feel too short. That this scale (and model size) would also be incompatible with the older 6mm stuff was probably seen as an added sales-boosting bonus. Finally, I think the drive to a slightly bigger size may also have related to the long-shot hope that these might get made in plastic; in the end, they did get them approved for plastic production (but FW weren't sure about that when they started).

Aaaaanyway. I love Epic - always have. My favourite rules are probably E40k, followed very closely by SM2/TL. I sadly never played AT1 nor SM1. I did play the last incarnation E:A, but I really didn't like it for some reason - the rules felt "wrong" for the size of the game, and I didn't like the unit size restrictions much (which were themselves a bit limited by the nature of the game mechanics).

If you're thinking of getting into Epic via 3D printed armies, I might also have another oddball suggestion for you to consider; WH40k Apocalypse. The rules are actually quite streamlined and well thought-out (and surprisingly scale-abstract), but using actual 40k models for the game is crazy. Instead, I would play the rules using 10mm or 15mm 3D printed figures, with squads having 3-5 models on one base for their make-up. I think you need this slightly bigger miniature size over 6mm because there are some modest elements of the game that are still related to individual figures (like heroes) where it's helpful to see them on the table more clearly, and there exists lots of good-value third-party terrain in these scales already which saves you needing to reinvent the wheel there.


@ fred and YPU:

Gents, those are some stunning 'Nid armies! well done indeed!  :-*

Offline Macunaima

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2022, 03:25:42 PM »
I have gone with Vanguardís 3mm stuff. Itís superdetailed and it allows you to field as many titans as you want, cheaply.

Offline fred

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2022, 03:38:44 PM »
@ fred and YPU:
Gents, those are some stunning 'Nid armies! well done indeed!  :-*

Thanks! They donít got on the table enough. Games with ĎNids often seem rather one sided - either the ĎNids get in and rip the opponent to shreds. Or the opponent manages to stand-off and shoot the nids to shreds! Either way its not much of a game.

WH40k Apocalypse is a good shout rules wise. We have played this with our Epic figures gives a pretty good game - its easy enough to ignore the individual figure level detail and just treat each squad as the same. The resolution of hits at the end of the turn really tempers the whole alpha strike meta that can very much dictate Epic (and 40k) games

Offline Major_Gilbear

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2022, 03:49:53 PM »
Yeah, whereas previous versions of Apocalypse were a giant boring pain in the ass to play, this latest version is actually a great game... Which is hardly surprising, since it cribs a lot from SM2/E40k!  lol

My advice (which I hope doesn't break forum rules...!  :-X ) would be to look around online for, erm, a pdf scan of the rules... Then, if you like what you read, buy the official game set that has the book and all the other paraphernalia you'll need. I only suggest this as it's a bit expensive to buy speculatively if you don't like it, but is excellent value to buy if you know that you do (and the tokens etc. in the set are very good quality).

Offline Verderer

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2022, 09:22:08 AM »
I guess the other thing to consider is basing, I see there's lots of variations used, the classic square base, round ones, ellipses, and the rectangle one. Does it matter a lot rules-wise, depending on the version of ruleset?

I've been trying to scout a bit 3d printable stuff, both for Epic and Warmaster, and the upshot seems to be that there are loads of great designs, but they're really scattered around various channels, like the Excellent minis / gumroad thingy, and various patreon channels etc. That can be frustrating...

I dont mind ordering physical minis, but with the Brexit and all, it's getting way too expensive to order from the UK, what with raising postage costs & taxes, customs etc. So 3D printing seems more and more the way to go.

Offline YPU

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2022, 09:55:03 AM »
With epic Armageddon they accounted for the fact that previously there had been round, square and rectangular bases provided with the miniatures. The rules there are:
Quote
A stand may be no more than 40mm and no less than 5mm across in any direction.
A stand must be at least 20mm across in one direction (i.e., a 5mm by 5mm stand is not allowed, but a 5mm by 20mm stand would be okay).
Stands representing infantry units must have at least three infantry models and may not have more than seven. Infantry mounted on bikes or horses must have between two and four models mounted on each base.
Stands representing artillery must have between one and two artillery pieces and up to six crew models.

Which allows a lot of options. I've based most of my humanoid troops on strips, while swarms like Tyranids go on round bases.
3d designer, sculptor and printer, at your service!



3d files! (here)

Offline fred

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2022, 12:19:24 PM »
Iíve used a variety of basing across my Epic armies

Space marines - 40x12mm plastic bases for infantry
Tyranids - ovals, as seen above - donít recall the size of these, but around the size of the above
Squats - 25mm circles

Across my gaming group 25mm circles are probably the most popular as they allow a squad to be deployed on the base. But the classic 20mm squares are in use on some armies too.

Rules wise - I think the rectangular basis have some potential to be the best. As you can deploy them wide to control space, or narrow to fit into gaps! I hadnít realised 5mm was the smallest base size allowed in the EA rules. If someone turned up with 40x5mm based infantry I would want to know why, as this isnít a standard sized base that came with the figures at any point, and seems quite extreme.

Offline YPU

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2022, 12:22:00 PM »
I was wondering about that as well! I think it might be a case of them basically wanting to say "use any base you want" then realize that no, people will abuse that, so lets put some limits on that. anything smaller than 5mm would indeed get silly.

Offline fred

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2022, 12:41:12 PM »
I canít recall which version of the Epic rules we played - I do recall there were similar broad definitions of bases as you have quoted, but I donít recall the recommendation on number of figures.

5mm bases would be very odd - with the original plastic figures you want some extra size on the base to protect the figures!

Offline Verderer

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2022, 11:04:11 AM »
Dang, I dug up some of my old marines and did some test prints on what's available in the net... it's interesting. There's some scale-creep or something going on. Here's my old GW Landraider and a printed proxy side by side.




I guess this print is 8mm, rather than adjusted for 'proper' size. I printed the file as a found it, so it's easy enough to scale down.



The second on the right is imperial guard proxy plunked in the middle of old marines... It's a bit closer to size, and not properly set in its place, but I think it's still a little bigger than these old GW SM?






And this 'evil galactic warrior' or whatever really drives home the size difference... Ok, so it's a little dislocated, but still, I measured it up, and from the bottom of its feet (so no base) to the top of its head (horns excluded), its around 9mm. Which would make it large human in 8mm scale... more or less.




Like I said, scaling down or up is easy enough in 3D printing, but of course it's easier to get better prints out of larger models. These were mostly a bit miscast, since I am trying to finetune my printer for ABS like resin, it seems a bit more finicky than the regular types.


Offline YPU

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2022, 02:11:01 PM »
Looking at that land raider that one is in "8mm" indeed, I made the same mistake last week, the thing is nearly the size of my guards baneblades  lol

Offline Verderer

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2022, 02:47:56 PM »
Yesh, I am liking this 8mm more and more, as I print the little dudes... there's just a little bit more to paint in details, and these free models are quite nice in quality as well. I did purchase a couple of commercial STLs beaky galactic dudes which are very nice as well, but I will save them for my Blood Angels when I eventually get there... plus you do pretty much every army in 8mm (and of course you can scale 6mm up too).

For now I am printing chaos marines, I am thinking these would be maybe Black Legion, Night Lords.... or maybe Emperor's Children? I want some nice color scheme which would be in nice contrast with BA, orks and Imp guards too. Anyhow:


Some tanks to move the marines around and add some firepower. Couldnt resist printing the one with multiple bolters in side sponsons and the gatlings on top. :D Rhinos and Vindicators with suitable chaos emblems and spikez (didn't find any for Emperors Children though, maybe add some afterwards?)


Bikers and a dreadnought, although I am not sure if the dread is some specialist? It was named brute, so I hope it's not a khornate thingy? If it is, I will replace it with a regular one. Need more bikers too.


Regular marines, one with a psyker and a horned dude... don't know what the latter one is, maybe should place on separate stand on its own? One has the commander with the big-ass sword. Need a couple more autocannons.


And last but not least, some terminators. the other stand has a psyker/librarian (and another horny dude), and the other has the commander raised sword next to the banner bearer. It's getting kind of crowded on those bases.

Well, it's a start anyways.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 02:50:14 PM by Verderer »

Offline YPU

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2022, 07:39:36 PM »
My you have been productive!

I think the dreadnought is modelled on a helbrute, a more recently introduced dreadnought variation that is all mutated looking. I don't think any of the main epic lists have rules for it, but it would do fine as a dreadnought, or maybe even dreadnought+character upgrade.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NL/Helbrute

Offline Verderer

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2022, 01:02:00 AM »
Good call Ypu, that looks indeed to be the case. Looks like most spiky marine chapter may have them, so it's alright. I am digging up my epic rulebooks, and I should still have those dice and blast markers in a box someplace...

Have to order some more resin though, even if these don't use it much. I got lost of pots on the boil, as usual... lol

Oh yeah, apparently the horned guy (horns on his head, not helmet, mind) is an 'apostle'. Dunno if they exist in any of the EPIC rule versions?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 01:06:01 AM by Verderer »

Offline YPU

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Re: Epic thoughts...
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2022, 09:06:54 AM »
In epic Armageddon there are a couple of character types that could be represented by that i think. Worth noting that most 40k figures are uploaded under pseudonyms  to avoid GWs ire. So most names are more of a hint at their use.

 

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