Best Conquistador Period "Large Skirmish" Rules

[SJWi]

Good Morning LAF-ers. I didn't know whether to put this question to the "period" board or under "Colonial", but decided here. Over the years I've been building forces of Conquistadors and Aztecs. Originally they were to help a friend with "Frostgrave Ghost Archipelago" but that never took off and in any event I'm not really a fantasy gamer.  Thus I now have about 50 figures for each side, all based individually on 2p coins. Can anyone suggest a decent set of rules to use for this period that uses roughly that number of figures. I'm prepared to buy a few more if needed but not many. It really is a sideline for me but I am quite fascinated by the topic and have invested in a couple of background books to expand my knowledge. 

Thanks

[ichwillauch]

With 50 miniatures for each side you can use variants of Lion Rampant and/or Pikeman's Lament like  this side shows: http://devonwargames.blogspot.com/2022/09/tenochtitlan-large-lion-rampant-skirmish.html

There are a lot of pirate skirmish games out there for smaller numbers of miniatures.  Maybe they need some homerules to take care of the power of fireweapons.

Some fantasy rulesets like Ghost Archipelago or Mordheim/Lustria have nice scenario ideas for fighting in jungle / ruin terrain

[SteveBurt]

Donnybrook works well

[fred]

 I’m a big fan of Irregular Wars - it is a small battle set of rules very much set in this era and with a number of rules that are specifically aimed at European vs Native games. It has a number of lists to cover Conquistadors and Aztecs (as well as many lists covering all sorts of other areas of early colonial expansion).

It is a unit based game, but is based on Base Widths, so I think your 50 or so figures a side would work pretty well at 2 or 3 figures on a 50-60mm square base

[SJWi]

Chaps, thanks for the answers. I'm not the biggest fan of"Rampant" but happy to give it a go. I'm actually trying out Frostrgrave Ghost Archipelago this weekend.

 Don't know much about Donnybrook. Can you expand on them.

 I had forgotten about "Irregular Wars" I looked at them a few years ago but (a) I thought it needed a lot of figures and (b) I was put off by the multibasing.

[fred]

I’ll have a look this evening at the size of a conquistador force for Irregular Wars - but I expect it will be pretty compact

[Golgotha]

Look forward to seeing your games and thoughts on rules would like to do similar so also keen to find a set of rules that would work for this setting.

[DivisMal]

If you don’t like Rampant (which would have been my first suggestion), I would also recommend Donnybrook: very fast, very easy with some nice design ideas in the army lists.

The book is absolutely gorgeous, but sadly oop. I got the pdf (which saves you from the three biblical plagues of p&p, taxes and handling fees(.

[fred]

I’ve had a look at the Conquistador list for Irregular Wars, it would be just 9 stands if made up entirely of Spanish. Up to 5 of those stands of Spanish could be swapped for Indians, of whom you would get 1d4 of or perhaps 1d6 for a couple of options. IW uses a system of picks to assemble a force, and some of those picks are of fixed number (eg 1, others can be a random amount, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4 or 1d6 - so you are never quite sure how successful your Lord will have been at recruiting.

The Mesoamerican list (which includes Aztec) contains a lot more random sized picks, I’d think it would be something around 12-20 stands.

There are some 10 different native lists available covering the whole of the Americas 

[fastolfrus]

Although Donnybrook is currently out of print, so might be difficult to track down a copy.

But, Clarence Harrison has just recently posted that he has a slimmed down "old school" style booklet that just has the basic rules (without all the army lists and background fluff etc) that's due out soon (in print and PDF). Not sure how soon, but the rules work well enough (and the out of print version included forces for the Scottish Darien adventure, almost similar to a Conquistador mission, apart from the outcome for the Scots)

The basic principle of the rules are that different troop types get different dice (so raw recruits will statistically achieve less hits than seasoned troops) and all activation is random (card-driven). Better quality units get less men. There are an assortment of special characters (who might help or hinder your units) such as officers, drummers, kennel-master with hunting hounds, local priests etc.
Good fun, easy to pick up the mechanics of the rules.

[Luisito]

Hi

There is Congo.  There are ob lists available in french for it ( I can send them to you ) I have  almost finished the cards and  I'm more then happy about the result. Here some cards

See you

Luis

[SJWi]

Many thanks for the clarifications.  I'm in no great hurry as although some of my Conquistadors are ready for action, the Aztecs are still sitting in their gray primer. I've just bought some more in the recent Foundry sale and they are definitely a "1st quarter 2023 " project, together with my box of Wargames Atlantic plastic Conquistador reinforcements.  I like the idea of Congo as I actually have a copy so no investment needed. A  cut-down Donnybrook also sounds interesting. Maybe one for the shows later in the year.  Also, "Irregular Wars" is tempting at only £12.... 

[pallard]

Hi
I have the same line and number of Aztec-Tlaxcalan-Conquistadore miniatures on the shelves and I intend to use En Garde for slightly smaller encounters. For larger games I might use Chris Peer's By the Sword rules, out of print now, but which had a specific topic supplement ( which I crave to have but missed at the time). Otherwise I will try maybe the new edition of Tribal. That would be better for near preconquest period, maybe less so for the Conquistadores. I don't think that Donnybrook would do: they are for late seventeenth century.
last, the Aztec pre-conquest warfare is very difficult to model with anything but a special set of rules.
Philippe

[pallard]

Wait wait wait!
An afterthought...  I happen to be into the preparation of a complete set of warbands for Flint an Feather. This is for Iroquoians indeed. But some points to consider:
- a focus on young warriors to be tested alongside veterans
- the fact that to take prisonners is much better than to kill them in the rules
- the weapons: mace, flint tipped weapons, shields, plus soft armour
- the possibility of adding late sixteenth century soldiers and the effect of surprise when facing firearms
- a warrior hierachy very similar to the Aztec, if you forget knights orders
Of course some rules would need some adaptation. But it might be worth a try.
Philippe

[NickNascati]

I’ve always gotten the impression that the Aztecs generally greatly outnumbered Cortez’s forces.  Maybe think about using colonial rules like The Sword and the Flame.  I believe there may actually be a published variant for Conquistadores.