*

Recent Topics

Author Topic: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"  (Read 47222 times)

Offline traveller

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #60 on: 23 May 2025, 10:29:26 AM »
Thought you might need this also  ;)
There were four artillery regiments in the Swedish army of 1808. It is worth to note that while a new uniform model was developed, with model number m/1808, this was not implemented until 1809. This means that the artillery during the war in Finland 1808-1809 still used the old m/1802 model. A few changes were though introduced between these two models. In 1805 the riding artillery got a white hat plume and the foot artillery got a all yellow plume in 1806 together with long trousers and shorter gaiters than before. The only difference between the uniform of the regiments was the collar:

Göta Artillery Regiment: Yellow
Wendes Artillery Regiment: White
Svea Artillery Regiment: Blue
Finska(means Finnish) Artillery Regiment: Red

In the Finnish War 1808-1809 only Svea and the Finska regiments were involved. At the Battle of Oravais only the Svea regiment. This image shows the m/1802 uniform of the Finska regiment:
« Last Edit: 24 May 2025, 09:28:21 AM by traveller »

Offline Calvin59

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 295
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #61 on: 24 May 2025, 01:35:52 PM »
Once again, many thanks for the information about the artillery regiments.
Perhaps you have some information to share with me regarding the conflict between the Norwegians and the Swedes in 1814.
Did the Swedes have the new uniforms or the old ones? This could help me with the figurines instead of making both versions.  ;)

Offline traveller

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #62 on: 25 May 2025, 06:54:46 AM »
Perhaps you have some information to share with me regarding the conflict between the Norwegians and the Swedes in 1814.
Did the Swedes have the new uniforms or the old ones? This could help me with the figurines instead of making both versions.  ;)

In 1814 more or less all regiments had the new m/1810 uniform so the Perry miniatures are not suited for the 1814 campaign. If you are interested in the conflict between Sweden and Denmark/Norway, the war in Norway in 1808 is more interesting. Both Uppland and Västmanland regiments paricipated in that campaign and had the same old uniforms as the had at the battle of Oravais. The Uppland Regiment participated in the battle of Lier April 18, 1808 where they stormed a Norwegian battery. The Västmanland regiment participated in the re-capture of the lost Swedish positions at Berby and Prästebakke June 14, 1808. June 30 to July 2 they skirmished with a Norwegian force under Huitfelt at Vassbotten and Enningdalsbro.
« Last Edit: 25 May 2025, 09:27:49 AM by traveller »

Offline Calvin59

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 295
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #63 on: 25 May 2025, 09:00:46 AM »
Well I'm going to stay in 1808 by necessity since the figurines don't exist. This suits me since the Uppland regiment is part of the campaign.
Do you have any information on the battles of Lier, Berby, and Prästebakke? It's really lacking online in French.
I found a magazine from "Wargames Illustrated" where there's an article "Getting Cold Feet in Norway," the Battle of Trangen 1808, by Jan Karrman. He will be presenting it at Salute 2025.
Thank you again for your help.  ;)

Offline traveller

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #64 on: 25 May 2025, 09:47:16 AM »
I have not studied this war in detail but I managed to find some details. I will look some further and hopefully update this post further:

Battle of Lier, April 18 1808

Lier, April 18
On 15 April, just two days after Skalbukilen, a larger Swedish force crossed the border again. It was the 1st Swedish brigade, which marched from the south towards Kongsvinger fortress. The force was about 900 men. Against them they had de Seus's brigade of about the same number of men. The Norwegian force consisted of a grenadier battalion from the Oppland Regiment, three companies from the Norwegian Light Battalion, a half-battery of three-pounder guns with four cannons and four amuseettes, i.e. one-pounder guns. The Norwegian guards gradually withdrew in front of the Swedish advancing forces. The idea of the withdrawal was to draw the Swedish forces into the fortifications in Lier, five kilometers south of the fortress, where de Seus's brigade was waiting. The fortifications in Lier were about 940 meters wide and had a protruding redoubt (a small round and closed entrenchment) a bit in front of the main fortification. Such a redoubt would break up the formation of the attackers as early as possible, but also prevent attacks from the east. The scaffolding was on its left wing next to a steep hill that went down towards Lake Tarven, and on its right wing out towards an open area that looked out towards Lake Føskersjøen. The right flank was the weak point of the position. If the enemy passed between the fortification and the lake, it could come up to a rear height and from there fire on the position. In front of the scaffold, there was open terrain that sloped down from the scaffold and gave the defenders a good view of the attackers.
The commander of the Lier position was Major Kreutz and he had about 900 men at his disposal. Some of them were also rural soldiers, i.e. untrained boys and men who had not yet been drafted and therefore had little military value. He deployed from the left three light companies, in the middle was the grenadier company Grüner and out to the right the Sadoline grenadier company. Four three-pounder guns were placed at Liergården in the far south, two amuseettes were placed on the left wing and two were placed in the redoubt. The reserves were located at Kongsvinger, and Kreutz had no available reserves in the position. This disposition was due to the fact that de Seue was afraid that the Swedes would come towards Kongsvinger from other directions than over Lier.
When the Swedes got as far as Lier positions, they stopped. At 9 o'clock in the morning the attack on Lier redoubt started. Swedish Captain Matern attacked the right wing of the redoubt without much success. He was out early and had to retire. They were left waiting in a grove – hidden from the Norwegians in the positions. The Norwegians thought the Swedes were defeated for good.
The main Swedish forces were waiting for word from Major Cederström and his third column – who had gone around the position to attack the fortification in the rear by crossing the ice on Vingersjön. While they were waiting, the Swedish Commander-in-Chief Gustaf Mauritz Armfelt arrived. Finally, word came from Cederström that the ice on Lake Vingersjön was too unsafe. Armfelt therefore had to replan and ordered Cederström to go south of the lake to attack the redoubt from the side. In the meantime, the other Swedish forces would make life miserable for the Norwegians.
Early in the afternoon, the attack started by the Swedes shelling the redoubt with cannons for a while. After that, they tried to storm it several times, without success. Armfelt therefore gave the order to retreat, but the order was never carried out.
Cederström's forces had been observed, and Major Kreutz ordered parts of Sadolin's company to reinforce the defenses on the left wing. The order was misunderstood by Captain Sadolin, who took his entire company with him. He emptied the entire right wing of the redoubt and made it possible for Captain Matern to take up a position to fire on the Lier positions from the rear. Captain Sadolin quickly moved his company to the left wing. Instead of staying in the position, he attacked with the whole company down the steep slope towards Tarvensjön. Here he and his men were met by Swedish fire and did not cross a strong stream. He lost 30 percent of the company – dead or wounded.
The situation was now precarious for the Norwegians. The right wing was lost, there was not much ammunition left, and much of the force had fallen. The Swedes noticed this, who launched a storm attack(Upplands Regemente) in the front. The redoubt fell and the whole redoubt was disbanded. Major Kreutz ordered a general withdrawal. The defeat was almost total. 54 Norwegians fell and over 100 were captured. It is not known how many people were wounded. The Swedes had only 5 dead, but as many as 83 wounded. The Norwegians were able to save some of the cannons, which at that time was very important.
The loss of the Lier Position was a hard blow to the Norwegian army leadership. The Swedes held the area until May 30, when they withdrew pretty much across the board. The events further south made it necessary, much to the surprise of the Norwegians, who could not follow.

Google translation from this article:

https://bokasin.se/norge-mot-sverige-1808/?doing_wp_cron=1748154053.3379828929901123046875

Wikipedia article with map:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lier_%281808%29



Re-capture of positions at Broby and Prästebakke June 14, 1808

This is not much of a battle. The Västmanland Regiment and other forces took the positions while the Norwegians withdrew without fighting.

Skirmishes June 30-July 2, 1808 at Vassbotten and Enningdalsbro

A Norwegian detachment under Captain Huitfeldt attacked the Swedish position at Vassbotten. If the Huitfeldts force was the same as during the battle of Prästebakke June 10, it should consist of infantry from the Sondenfjeldske Regiment (page 28, plate 1 in Wilsons volume 3) together with some militia.

Google translation from "Sveriges Krig 1809-1809"

At dawn Huitfeldt attacked with 150 men the Swedish outpost of 300
Västmanland and Jämtland infantry under the captain of Västmanland's
regiment Count H. M. Cronhjelm  at Vassbotten . After a brief exchange of gunfire
the Norwegians withdrew again with insignificant
loss. Huitfeldt's detachment took up a position at Enningdalsbro.
Here he was attacked on the night of 1-2 .
July by a Swedish reconnaissance detachment and withdrew slightly
but took their previous position, since the Swedes
returned to Vassbotten with some prisoners.

There are a number of quite good Wikipedia articles on the war in english:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dano-Swedish_War_(1808%E2%80%931809)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Prestebakke
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mobekk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berby
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trangen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_R%C3%B8denes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Toverud






« Last Edit: 25 May 2025, 10:42:36 AM by traveller »

Offline Calvin59

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 295
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #65 on: 25 May 2025, 07:43:18 PM »
Thank you again for spoiling me with all these references, which I will read carefully.
This way, I will be completely unfamiliar with this conflict in France.
Besides, following my question on OHSWR to get players' impressions, I didn't get much feedback, just a few comments about how fluid it was, but especially more so for WW2. I'll wait a little longer before buying it.  ;)

Offline Calvin59

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 295
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #66 on: 25 May 2025, 07:51:28 PM »
If I wanted to make hussars in the future, what Perry figures would you recommend?  ;)

Offline traveller

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #67 on: 25 May 2025, 09:07:12 PM »
If I wanted to make hussars in the future, what Perry figures would you recommend?  ;)

What year and conflict you want to use hussars? In Norway 1808 the Life Regiments Husar corps participated. In that case you should look for hussars in mirliton:



This could be a good option:

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product/aw169-hussars-swords-charging-with-pelisse/
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product/aw168-hussars-galloping-swords-shouldered-with-pelisse/
« Last Edit: 25 May 2025, 09:39:44 PM by traveller »

Offline Calvin59

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 295
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #68 on: 26 May 2025, 08:20:01 AM »
Thank you again for the photo and the suggestion of the Perry figurines.

In Rawkins, it says that around 1807 they could wear the shako. But I'd stick with wearing the kazoo because I like that headdress, which is more original than the shako.

For the Uppland Regiment in Rawkins, the trousers are yellow, but I imagine that this is ceremonial dress and that in the field they are white or gray?  ;)

Offline traveller

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #69 on: 26 May 2025, 09:22:01 AM »
Thank you again for the photo and the suggestion of the Perry figurines.

In Rawkins, it says that around 1807 they could wear the shako. But I'd stick with wearing the kazoo because I like that headdress, which is more original than the shako.

For the Uppland Regiment in Rawkins, the trousers are yellow, but I imagine that this is ceremonial dress and that in the field they are white or gray?  ;)

Maybe it is a bit of language confusion  ;) Rawkins write that "Around 1807 the Mornerska husarregementet seems to have been issued with a bell topped shako of black felt with black leather trim to the upper and bottom edges and a black leather peak."
That is another regiment and not the same as Life Regiments Husar corps. I can not find that he gives any directions for the headgear of Life Regiments Husar corps? I also saw that he refers to a "mirliton shako" while it should be either mirliton OR shako. The mirliton is the one in the image above. Not sure what a kazoo is, French word for mirliton?

I could not find any reference in Rawkins regarding yellow trousers for the Uppland regiment. Any page reference? Anyway, the usual problem for Rawkins is that he did not have access to primary sources in Swedish language. According to the Swedish Army Museum book "Kronans Kläder" 2010, in which there are, fortunately for you, special studies of the uniform development of a few infantry regiments, including Uppland and Västmanland, they had grey trousers when arriving in Finland 1808.

The Swedish infantry actually usually had three different kind of trousers:
1. Uniform trousers: depending on regiment they could be white, yellow, grey or blue. A few Jäger units had green trousers. Made of heavier material (wool)
2. Summer trousers: white. Made of lighter material (linen or cotton)
3. Fatigue trousers. The soldiers had a grey fatigue uniform to be used in camp or during manual labour. This uniform was sometimes used if lacking other trousers.


Offline Calvin59

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 295
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #70 on: 26 May 2025, 11:19:22 AM »
I saw the yellow pants on page 28, but I'm referring to you, who know the Swedish army uniforms inside out.
I think there was a mistranslation because I meant "mirliton" and not "kazou."
As for the flags found starting on page 92, you can trust the author, or I'll have to ask you.  ;)

Offline traveller

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #71 on: 26 May 2025, 02:14:14 PM »
I saw the yellow pants on page 28, but I'm referring to you, who know the Swedish army uniforms inside out.
I think there was a mistranslation because I meant "mirliton" and not "kazou."
As for the flags found starting on page 92, you can trust the author, or I'll have to ask you.  ;)

I checked page 28 and I am afraid old Rawkins got it wrong there. The Uppland Regiment did not have any yellow trousers from 1779 onwards.

Regarding the flags in Rawkins book you have to ask yourself:
1. Is the image correct in terms of pattern?
2. Is Is the image correct in terms of colours?
3. Is this design valid for the year you want to use them for according to regulation?
4. Is this design valid for what the regiment ACTUALLY used that particular year? (in several cases were older flags used)

The answers on these questions will vary depending on the regiment. If we take a look at the Uppland Regiment the answers will be:
1. YES
2. NO, as you can see on page 2 in this thread, the laurel should be yellow-gold rather than brownish
3. Yes, it is model m/1766
4. Yes, it is model m/1766

Västmanland Regiment
1. YES
2. NO, as you can see on page 2 in this thread, the mountains should be grey instead of blue and the flames yellow-gold rather than red.
3. Yes, it is model m/1766
4. Yes, it is model m/1766

Offline Calvin59

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 295
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #72 on: 26 May 2025, 04:09:28 PM »
Thank you again. May I suggest that you take Rawkins' entire publication and edit a new version, with all the data you know.  ;)

Offline traveller

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #73 on: 26 May 2025, 04:21:22 PM »
Thank you again. May I suggest that you take Rawkins' entire publication and edit a new version, with all the data you know.  ;)

As said earlier, Swedish uniforms 1800-1814 is a minefield... :) BTW you have put me back on the Napoleonic track, thanks for that, and I read a bit more about the 1808 campaign in Norway in the General staff official history of the war. A common tactics both in Germany 1805-1807 and in Norway 1808, was to send a force of up to 100 Jägers together with maybe up to 20 hussars as an advance guard, a recon force or even an assault force to take enemy outposts. Sometimes together with a 6lb or 3 lb gun. Beside the battles, which were a little bigger engagements were the Line regiments were involved, these type of jäger/hussar forces almost did all of the fighting. The jägers involved would either be jägers detached from their line regiment and grouped together with other jägers, to form a battalion OR jägers from the jäger regiments. For Norway that would be the Värmland Jäger Regiment (that Perry has in the correct uniform)

Online glenning

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 302
Re: Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"
« Reply #74 on: 26 May 2025, 10:22:31 PM »
As a Swede, I must say this is a great thread! I want to start a project now too!  lol

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
11 Replies
4845 Views
Last post 17 November 2012, 12:08:54 AM
by Dolmot
63 Replies
20962 Views
Last post 30 July 2014, 10:05:36 AM
by commissarmoody
7 Replies
4872 Views
Last post 26 February 2014, 09:19:34 PM
by Steam Flunky
11 Replies
3896 Views
Last post 09 August 2016, 04:30:10 PM
by Dalauppror
6 Replies
2714 Views
Last post 18 July 2025, 07:40:50 PM
by Pancratist