Women in wargames

[FramFramson]

LAF miniatures and Red Box are of course exceptions to the rule. I've had a wander through the three latter companies I and would maintain my statement stands. Hell, first thing I got when I went to the Reaper page was a naked female figure.

I am going to continue to disagree with you there. If you want to upset yourself, it's easy enough to do so, but if your intent is to promote positive depictions of women, the minis are out there, loads of them. Use those. Saying that there are no sensible female figures out there is a gross disservice to the manufacturers who are producing perfectly reasonable figures.

Incidentally, the image header on Reaper is randomized, changing each time the page is loaded or refreshed.

If I had a pound for every time I heard this one. Be it advertising, films, magazines... "well they don't have to buy it", said with a smirk. As has already been said, what if the majority of the black figures were crude caricatures? Would that be ok? I'm well aware that people who do not like the figures will not buy them.  
To make my point for the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to stop production of this stuff, just trying to work out why there is so much of it (a matter we're simply going to have to disagree on), and why it seems to be such a widely accepted norm.

You can have all the pounds you like. That doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Let me ask you where do you think the responsibility for equitable treatment lies?

You say you're not arguing for a ban on production of sexualized figures, so if it's not going to be the producers responsibility, then would it not fall to us the consumers to decide what to buy? I mean, who else do you expect to deal with this? It's not going to be some random third party.

As a GM it is absolutely my responsibility to make sure I run a game that all players will be comfortable and welcome playing.

And if we as players choose to play with more miniatures that have a more equitable design, that changes the demand on manufacturers as well.

As for the why, well wargaming has historically been VERY male-dominated having grown out of military war gaming, and this bred an atmosphere where men became comfortable doing questionable things they might not do in mixed company (or maybe not do at all, though that's honestly a separate discussion), like tart up their armies or make atrocious comments or jokes.

That's not the whole answer by any means (there's a big open-ended question about whether women and men genuinely want different qualities in their gaming hobbies and if so, what, and to what extent), but that's the part of the answer which is directly related to sexualized miniatures and their disproportionate presence in the hobby.  

Whelp, that says it all really, doesn't it? I'm simply a prude. "Political correctness gone mad" I'll wager.

If you want to take my off-the-cuff comment as an insult directed at you personally, I suppose I'll just add that to the list of things you seem to want to be outraged by.

As I said, there's very much a valid and important discussion to be had about the presence and treatment of women in the wargaming hobby, where they are an extremely small and underrepresented minority - notice not a single woman has a direct voice in this thread so far (AFAIK). But this emotional bluster is a complete disservice to any such discussion.

In response to 'it's harmless, no women have problems with it', I'll stick this here.

http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/74689891216/arvid-submitted-i-was-wondering-if-someone
http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/81038569960/eschergirls-filbypott-a-succubus-wearing

That blog had more to do with female depictions in comics and digital games, but in their themes I don't think they're a million miles away from many fantasy and sci-fi settings in wargames and other mini games. Take a browse through it. See how many people have problems with it. Most of them have two X chromosomes. When you're done, take a look through these too. Keep in mind how much of the content resonates with this hobby. Do you think many of the participants would give an automatic thumbs-up to the 'perfectly inoffensive sexy chicks' already posted in this thread?

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/
http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/category/she-has-no-head/

Rationalising it, even with your own experiences, as a bit of fun that women love, can be close-minded and unhelpful to say the least. Granted, wargaming might be more of a boy's toys pursuit, and there are women who also engage in it, but I wonder how many try to avoid those seedier aspects, and how more are discouraged because it seems too much like a *cough* 'gentleman's club'. And granted, I haven't noticed the kind of horrific responses in the wargaming world that some female comics creators and critics have received, upon their comments that the depiction of women has to change; although those former set me right against objectification in any nerd-media. Our vicious arguments tend to be about Games Workshop and how ancient weapons were used, but I wonder about the reaction of some fanboys and old boys if our tiny niche gained more attention and more women started to ask where the non-BDSM-elf and -nun armies were. Heck, got creeped out enough just by the 'positive' welcome given to the new 'editors' over on that other site...

Also, I'm pretty shocked by the assertion some of you are making that 'women should be sexy and seductive, and men tough and masterful'. I mean, that should speak for itself, right? You know it's playing up to old, harmful stereotypes, right? You realise there are women who would not appreciate the support of these, frankly, nakedly oppressive gender roles? (I'd also say that the young lady dressed up as Red Sonja is not subverting that too much. I'd guess she's prepared to fight some hordes off, but sweaty nerds, not ravening stygians. She's no more empowered than sunbathers at the beach.)
Taking that, and that fallacious example of semi-naked barbarians (and going back to the Hawkeye Initiative a bit): there's a difference between sexual fantasies and power fantasies, or in other words the old chestnut - 'wanting to be and wanting to be with'. I'd hazard most male gamers are eyeing up the ersatz Conans with a little vicariousness and even envy, not arousal. (I also doubt most female gamers are having their cake and eating it by casting lustful glances at these 28mm metal people too) The viewpoints of some male gamers towards miniatures of semi-clad females, though... that's already spoken for itself, as mentioned. "I like the little women I own to be sexy, provocative, and wearing few clothes!" That's all that's wanted; all they can really represent. All they're good for representing, even.

That's the problem, really: that people think there's no problem.

This is all a lot more reasonable. It's absolutely valid to point out that power fantasies are not sexual fantasies - that's a conflation spouted all the time by people who're seeking to explain highly sexualized imagery as normal.

Sex exists and both genders want it. But there's an important difference between everyone being open and honest about this and in situations where it's fine, versus randomly trying to insert sexually charged imagery into things which are not by default sexual and quite possibly unwelcome (i.e. games) and then mumbling mealy-mouthed rationalizations about how it's "Historically accurate" or such.

[Centaur_Seducer]

As I said, there's very much a valid and important discussion to be had about the presence and treatment of women in the wargaming hobby, where they are an extremely small and underrepresented minority - notice not a single woman has a direct voice in this thread so far (AFAIK). But this emotional bluster is a complete disservice to any such discussion.

To be fair, they don't frequent this forum with some expections

[FramFramson]

I think there's a couple, but certainly not many.

[Arlequín]

Off the top of my head I can think of at least four members who are probably female, but given the use of gender-neutral usernames there could be a few more... or less. You'll find them on 'Medieval', 'Pulp' & 'Interwar' at the very least (I obviously only encounter them on the boards I use and I don't use all of them). Out of 5k+ total members though, with perhaps 1k active members, they are a woefully small minority on LAF.

They probably haven't contributed to this discussion because they are too busy painting figures and playing games.

[Cherno]

Sex exists and both genders want it. But there's an important difference between everyone being open and honest about this and in situations where it's fine, versus randomly trying to insert sexually charged imagery into things which are not by default sexual and quite possibly unwelcome (i.e. games) and then mumbling mealy-mouthed rationalizations about how it's "Historically accurate" or such.

I really can't imagine anyone justifying (if it indeed needs justification) sexually charged imagery by arguing that it's historically accurate 

[Oldben1]

This thread has actually got me thinking about how many female miniatures I have overall.  Very few actually.  Perhaps I need more!

[Silent Invader]

The thread had got me wondering if any 'not' minis from fantasy and scifi movies etc that are portrayed as not-overly sexualised on film have been sexed-up for the wargaming market.  I'm thinking of the Ripley from Alien(s), Michone from the Walking Dead, Ygritte from Game of Thrones and their like: women who are powerful but (almost all the time) fully and practically clothed.  If there was a demand for such sexed-up not-minis then wouldn't the manufacturers be meeting it?

If there is a demand, it is MAYBE (this is anecdotal not scientific) suggestive that a sufficiently significant proportion of wargamers (and/or collectors) prefer stylised sexuality to accurate representation?

[der teufel]

They probably haven't contributed to this discussion because they are too busy painting figures and playing games. 

"in a nutshell", well said 

[/quote]

[Michi]

If there was a demand for such sexed-up not-minis then wouldn't the manufacturers be meeting it?

If there is a demand, it is MAYBE (this is anecdotal not scientific) suggestive that a sufficiently significant proportion of wargamers (and/or collectors) prefer stylised sexuality to accurate representation?

Hasslefree, Crooked Dice and a few others do quite a few female not-minis which are anatomically and clothing-wise very accurate, I am not aware of any sexualised female not-minis though. Usually the sexualised ones are not of prototypical similarity to movies rather than graphic novels or books (there is a lot of "jungle queens" and sci-fi bikini girls based on such).

[FramFramson]

Sexualization of 'not-figures' is probably overthinking it. I expect most manufacturers or sculptors will just try to be accurate, more-or-less, since they have a specific model to work from.

[Arlequín]

If there is a demand, it is MAYBE (this is anecdotal not scientific) suggestive that a sufficiently significant proportion of wargamers (and/or collectors) prefer stylised sexuality to accurate representation?

I think the bulk of 28mm figures full stop don't tend to fall within the bounds of 'accurate representation', they're usually 'chunky monkeys' at best, so the odds of getting a female figure proportioned correctly, or sometimes with even both breasts within the same size range is fairly low.

Back when I was carrying a lot more pounds, getting a figure which looked like me was far easier. 

[angel barracks]

To those that state women should be sexy and seductive and other similar things.


Why?

[Bugsda]

Why not, what else are they useful for? 


 

[Cherno]

To those that state women should be sexy and seductive and other similar things.


Why?

  Who said that?

[angel barracks]

Who said that?

That would be you.

Women are supposed to be sexy.....