Looking for a ‘large skirmish’ ruleset

[aktr]

Hi
I’m desperately trying to convince my friends to play 28mm ancients as it’s something I’ve wanted to do for years.
I’ve got one that that said he would be willing to give it a go (with proxies) but I’m looking for a suitable ruleset. I’m currently considering crusader but I wondered if anyone had any other suggestions. Unfortunately there are a few requirements that the rules will need to fit around (although some of them could be bent slightly for a good ruleset)
Requirements
Scale: 28mm (non-negotiable)
Army size: Large skirmish –something with 5 or 6 units per side but where the units are about 20 figures or less for rank and file infantry. Basically so I can buy 3 or 4 boxes from warlord games/war games factory etc. and have enough for an army
Time: a game needs to be concluded in 2 and a half hours of less
Table size: Max 6x4 foot
Rule book: I like printed rule books, I’d rather spend £20 on a nicely bound printed rule book the £5 on a pdf
Points system: The game needs a points system for pickup games (yes I know it will not be balanced)
Stats: I’m not a fan of games where models only have 1 or 2 stats and then a bunch of special rules, I much prefer there to be lots of stats and the only a handful of special rules (mmmmmmmmm numbers)
Period: I would quite like it to cover ancients up to pike and shotte but if that’s not possible then ancients to dark ages
Would be nice to have
It would be nice to have some system that means you may not be able to do everything you want with your army. So for example you have to make a skill test in order to do complex moves, or alternatively you only get to activate some of your units a turn
Also a none yahoo group forum where I can go and lurk but hardly ever post

Yes I know I’m very demanding

Cheers
Andy

[Mad Doc Morris]

"Crusader" like Crusader Publishing rules? If so, I reckon these aren't necessarily 'large skirmish' but rather battle-sized rules. Also, they might be out of print soon.

Otherwise, as you said, there are a lot of boxes to be ticked. From the top of my head I couldn't name a system meeting all or most of your requirements. (At least nothing that's not hard to come by.)

"SAGA" by Studio Tomahawk would be a current and very generic unit-based skirmish system, of course, although it's (yet) focussed on Dark Age and Medieval warfare. That said there are literally hundreds of fan-made 'adapted versions' out there, and I've played games set in Antiquity with just the original rules. However, there are no extensive stats but a set of special rules for each faction.
"Dux Britanniarum" by Too Fat Lardies has a very nice 'Ancients' feel to it. David Imrie has used it for his "The Eagle" game, here's a summary. It's aimed at large skirmishes with a few heroic characters in command. It has no points system, but since forces are more or less fixed, it's suited to pick-up games, too (although you may rather want to play its excellent campaign mode).

Of course, there might be a glaring omission on my part. Surely others will chime in.

[sjwalker51]

Other than 'period', the Osprey "Lion Rampant" medieval rules tick all your boxes pretty well and are a good introductory rule set.

Definitely written with 28mm 'large scale skirmish' in mind, with each unit (typically 6 per side) having 6 or 12 figures depending on type. There is a points system and example lists in the rules, and the unit activation rules give you the uncertainty you want, and there's even a forum to lurk on.

The rules would lend themselves to earlier periods (troop classifications can be easily adapted) and are rather more subtle to master than first impressions might suggest.

Hope this helps

[Dr. Zombie]

I would say Lions Rampant fits most of your requirements.

The rules themselves are focused on medieval warfare. But can easily go down into the darkages. And I don't really see anything wrong with them working for ancients also.

[aktr]

Thanks for the suggestions so far
Yes it’s the Crusader rules by Crusader publishing, I recently bought them (and both supplements) so availability would only be a problem for my opponents. I thought I had read that a ‘normal’ sized game was 2000pts and a basic minimum unit of roman legionnaires is 400pts so I assumed it would only be a few units a side. Although I may have got this wrong
I do already own saga and the C&C variant, I’ll have a look for some of these fan expansions, although the chap I’ll hopefully be playing against its quite a stickler for things being ‘official’
I quite like some of the other TFL rules so I may have to give Dux Britanniaruma look
I have the Lion Rampant rule book floating around somewhere so I’ll have to give it a re-read

[Mad Doc Morris]

Just to clarify: "Skirmish" suggests that you want to represent conflicts – more or less – at a 1 to 1 ratio. There might be units or groups of models involved, but essentially you're focussing on small scale actions like raiders being chased by militiamen or troopers infiltrating an enemy town or some such. Whereas something like "Crusader" allows you to (re-)play full-scale battles with units representing a syntagma, a cohort or even a whole legion or phalanx.
Both can be played with 28mm miniatures, yet there are many more battle-size rules for Ancients out there than dedicated skirmish ones. The suggestions so far aim at 'large skirmishes', i.e. skirmishes with unspecified, ad-hoc units or groups of soldiers. If you're just after a certain amount of models involved, "(Basic) Impetus", "Dux Bellorum" or even "Hail Caesar", to name but a few, are well suited to games with low model counts.

[aktr]

Yes skirmish is probably the wrong word
I’m looking to limit things so the maximum model count for even horde armies would be less than 100 figures
I had always thought that Hail Creaser was heavy on the model count and often required extra-large tables

[Juan]

"Dux Bellorum", from Osprey.

[A Lot of Gaul]

Yes skirmish is probably the wrong word
I’m looking to limit things so the maximum model count for even horde armies would be less than 100 figures
I had always thought that Hail Creaser was heavy on the model count and often required extra-large tables

It is certainly true that  that Hail Caesar works very well for playing large, multi-player battles with armies comprising hundreds of figures.  

However, the HC rulebook also includes scenarios with as few as 7-8 units per side. And since you are free to choose for yourself the frontage and figure count for a 'standard' sized unit in your games, there is nothing to stop you from using HC for battles of the size and scope you described.

Cheers,
Scott

[aktr]

The more I think about it the more I’m tempted to just give in and go for something big like Clash of empires or war and conquest

I’ll just have to see if I can persuade my friends

[Longstrider]

I think, cost and painting time aside, that if you're looking for a game with ranked models, then you either go big or you play some other kind of thing.

Don't get me wrong, I love Saga, and Lion Rampant looks very good (got it, saw a couple of games being played, haven't played yet). Skirmish games are generally my preference. But I like a good big battle too.

Ruleswise, I'd suggest Kings of War might be worth a look, or Hail Caesar, in that both of those games care about unit footprints rather than number of models. I think for a game to really be engaging you usually want more than 6 'units' a player controls. If you play KoW with units of 10, you can get quite a lot of units on the table. Or you can use units of 10 but on a base for a larger unit - in KoW the units don't get models removed, so you could in theory play with cardboards squares cut to the right size.

Hail Caesar has a few different sizes of units, but they're just supposed to be proportional to each other. Standard is that 8-10 figures is a small unit and double that is a medium, and add some more for a large, but you could be cheeky and halve that or quarter it, or whatever, and adjust ranges proportionally.

If not, HC posits that you class Republican Romans as small units, but with the capabilities of larger units, so you can use that principle to come up with more elite forces having smaller numbers but fighting harder easily. The rulebook and army book does give you costs to stat your own units if you want.

[Lowtardog]

Id probably go lion rampant you can scale up or down in terms of points/ figures has its own forum and growing support units 12 or six models with around 50 for basic force

[3 fingers]

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=50295.0
Any good to you?

[Mod Edit: link corrected]