Hail Caesar in 10mm - my mental block

[Kealios]

I didnt want to post this in the http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=80155.0 thread because, though related, it is my own personal problems

Also, I have registered twice on the Warlord Games forums, but still havent been accepted, so I come here.

I bought the Hail Caesar rules once I got wind of the Fantasy mod by Ady, and once I learned it was basically Warmaster v3, I was really curious. The book arrived and I was so impressed - hard cover, jacket sleeve, full color glossy...I definitely got my money's worth.

I started reading and, while impressed, instantly hit a mental block. The author seems so loosy-goosy with what he allows, that I have to admit, I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around it.

I think my biggest problem is the conversion of scale. This is obviously meant for 28mm, but even so, unlike Warhammer Fantasy (where each and every model is individually based), this allows for multiple models per base/stand. The author is constantly referencing "2 models deep" or "4 models wide"...but this doesnt actually seem to matter and is merely a visual thing?

It doesnt help that I am planning on playing this with my 10mm Warmaster models - which arent based anywhere near Hail Caesar standard. I dont worry about "X deep" or "Y Wide" because, well, 40mm x 20mm is what I've got!

Frontage - he starts with discussing things like "160mm-200mm" which leaves the reader to do mental math - and I've seen people mention how to accomplish this with Warmaster bases, but damn - I need to reduce my Warmaster collection in half so I can make Hail Caesar units? 2 Infantry units (6 bases total) to make 1 Infantry stand in HC...or 2 cavalry to make 1 HC unit...

Formations - I've seen how to represent Open Order formations with 6 bases by basically forming an X, but what about with just 3 bases? What about Tiny units, or Skirmishers?

I think this is a pretty epic failing on my own part - and admitting it is a bit embarrassing, like admitting that I just cannot quite grasp what should be simple conversions. Did/does anyone else encounter this problem? Do you just play with Warmaster units and not worry about the rest of the conventions? How does reading a book that tells you one thing (that doesnt apply) and you doing another work? Does anyone have a super-simple solution (!) that makes this work?

Thanks in advance,
Kealios

[Vermis]

Page 174, Appendix 2: Using smaller models. In a nutshell, they emphasise that unit frontages are more important than unit depths (which are there for looks, or something), acknowledge that smaller scales need smaller frontages to keep the numbers down, and provide a unit frontage chart for 15mm and below.

Suggested unit frontages for a smaller-scale standard unit are 120-160mm. Three Warmaster bases wide! Handy. Problem is that's across the board for everything barring artillery, meaning you need 6 Warmaster cav or chariot bases to make a standard unit. That or make them a small unit at 60-90mm, or rip up your minis and face them to the long edge.

I don't think that's an entirely ideal situation, so no, I don't think it's entirely a failing on your part! TBH, while I think HC is a good ruleset in most ways, I'm not fond of all the handwaveyness and vague conventions myself. Just the 28mm unit measurements give me a headache, and I'm not fond that you need about twice the minis (same frontage, double depth) for warbands, just 'cos Rick thinks it looks nice; especially since I was hoping to use the rules for Dark Ages. I've since latched onto Dux Bellorum for that. (Yeah, I know, in HC you don't need to follow the letter of the rules, but still...)

For that matter, not to put down Ady's hard work, but I'm also not overwhelmingly tempted to jump ship with my own Warmaster minis from Mayhem...

[Kealios]

Aha. I hadn't read that far into the book. Thanks!

I also play Mayhem and really like it. As I was purchasing my 10mm armies, I made sure to make them Warmaster-legal, though, since my 10mm friends all play WM. I've shown them Mayhem before, and will make sure to do so again...

For now, though, I'm "advance scouting" HC on behalf of said group...

[Barbarian]

I think Mayhem is superior to HC : more abstraction is better for me.
And Mayhem requires 40 x40 mm bases so you make 3 units with 2 warmaster units. (don't need to glue them)

There is another rule that I want to try : Warband by Pendraken. (BTW they sell sabot bases for your Warmaster minis, so you don't habe to rebase anything)

[Kealios]

What if...and this is just conjecture, because I havent read the whole HC book yet...

Some of this was ported over to Warmaster? I mean, a lot of people already use the mishmash that is Warmaster + Warmaster Ancients, right? Throwing in some of the good stuff from HC might be easy:

1. Multiple orders with one roll
2. New and Improved Command Modifiers
3. "Morale" save modifiers
4. New formations (and associated Command/Armor saves) plus terrain interactions (cavalry in Open Order entering woods? Incredible

This is just the top of my head. I wonder if anyone was tried this...

[jamesmanto]

Take a look at your collection. Decide what you want a standard unit to be. 3 stands wide? 2 stands? What the author says looks good DOESN'T matter, it is what YOU think looks good.

For my 15mm figures I used 12 figures on two 40x30 stands as the basic unit. Warbands were still two stands but a bit deeper at 40x40 per stand.

[Kealios]

You have a good point...

However, the reason most of us get concerned over little details in different rulesets is that, ideally at some point, we'll meet with a friend or even a stranger and have a game. At that point, having some reliable consistency is a good thing...

But yes, I get where you're coming from.

[A Lot of Gaul]

Hi Kealios,

Hail Caesar is a very felixble rule set, designed so that most folks can use their existing armies with minimal or no rebasing. The great thing about 'all the handwaveyness' in HC is that you and your friends can decide on the conventions that work best for you. The rules will play perfectly well with your existing units, outside of adding some cavalry figures or rebasing your existing cavalry along the long edge as mentioned previously. Outside of aesthetics, there is no need to have 'double depth' warbands or pike phalanxes if you don't want to, and you can stagger your skirmisher bases to show that they are in open order, or simply play them as they are.

As others have mentioned, the only real consistency necessary in Hail Caesar is unit frontage. Most 10mm-15mm HC players use frontages of either 80mm or 120mm per unit, and either reduce the movement distances by half or measure in cm instead of inches. Here are some links to folks using 10mm armies for HC:

http://grandscalewargaming.blogspot.com/2011/06/10mm-hail-caesar-armies.html

https://lurkusspleen.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/hail-caesar-in-10mm-first-game/

http://www.10mm-wargaming.com/2014/12/caesars-gallic-war-gallic-army.html

If you are having trouble registering for the Warlord Games forum, just send an email to info@warlordgames.com, and they should be able to get you sorted in relatively short order.

Hope this helps a bit!

Cheers,
Scott

[A Lot of Gaul]

Accidental duplicate post - moderator please delete!

Cheers,
Scott