More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic

[Cubs]

There's an absolutely hilarious (at least I think so) book written by Mary Gentle, called 'Grunts!'

I've read that! It was years ago, but I recall they attacked some tower packed with wizards, who managed to just about survive by using a low level 'Fail Weapon' spell on the the Orcs' assault rifles. But the leader of the Orc recognises that their success comes not from the equipment itself (although they do protect the rifles with magical talismans after that), but rather from the superior organisation and control on the battlefield.

[Daeothar]

Yup; the ork marines (and later also elf, dwarf etc marines) get issued nullifying talisman dogtags as standard afterwards, effectively sidelining magic from combat completely... 

[Arthadan]

Back on topic, if I may...

They may. Cirdan had a beard.

Tolkien wrote Elves do have beards, but only when they are extremely old. Cirdan was not born in Middle-earth, but created directly by Eru (one of the Elves which first awoke in Cuivienen).

Edited: The McBride picture posted before has brought to memory this one:



I think is pretty good.

We have some Orcs:
- Correct size.
- Curved swords (at least one).
- Armour looks crude but effective.
- Skin could be "black".
- Mr. McBride has taken literally the "burning coal" eyes.

And then we have the Cave Troll:
- Size is a bit small, cavern Trolls are supposed to be the biggest breed and here he seems slightly taller than Boromir. i think that size would work well for Stone Trolls though.
- Skin covered by green scales.

Unfortunately we cannot see his toeless feet.

Now I'm wondering if every single Troll breed has green scales. i think it would make sense Stone Trolls have grey scales for example. And about the toeless feet, I think a bipedal creature couldn't stand on elephantine "feet".

Here is an interesting solution (from Devianart artist Merlkir):



And the movie take wasn't bad either:


However the Stone Trolls in The Hobbit seems to have no scales (at least they are not mentioned).

But they were trolls. Obviously trolls. Even Bilbo, in spite of his sheltered life, could see that: from the great heavy faces of them, and their size, and the shape of their legs, not to mention their language, which was not drawing-room fashion at all, at all.

So they "great heavy faces" and there is something very distinctive about the shape of their legs.

Then there was a gorgeous row. Bilbo had just enough wits left, when Bert dropped him on the ground, to scramble out of the way of their feet, before they were fighting like dogs, and calling one another all sorts of perfectly
true and applicable names in very loud voices.

Again Tolkien uses the word "feet" and not hooves so it seems the two previous designs are wrong.

Here we have the "elephantine" take, seems to work better:


Still not sure if you can call feet to that.

And finally, there is something called Apert Syndrome (bone malformation) which may affect the feet. I've found an example (basically all toes are joined). As you can imagine is not nice to see, but i think it could work for Trolls. I leave it here.

[Hobgoblin]

And then we have the Cave Troll:
- Size is a bit small, cavern Trolls are supposed to be the biggest breed and here he seems slightly taller than Boromir. i think that size would work well for Stone Trolls though.

Where do you get the info on cave trolls' relative size? I don't recall anything saying that they're bigger than other types. There's nothing in the Moria passages to suggest that, as far as I remember.

[nicknorthstar]

However the Stone Trolls in The Hobbit seems to have no scales (at least they are not mentioned)

The Prof doesn't mention loads of things, which is why we have these debates. I'd say refer to my earlier post, where in the drawing that is in most editions of The Hobbit' of the Trolls, they look very scaly.


I also mentioned there is an earlier Tolkien sketch, not included in 'The Hobbit', where the trolls are clearly not scaly, but, they look rubbish. They would be the worse troll figures on the market if they were made.

[jon_1066]

The Prof doesn't mention loads of things, which is why we have these debates. I'd say refer to my earlier post, where in the drawing that is in most editions of The Hobbit' of the Trolls, they look very scaly.

Definitive proof that Tolkien also intended Middle Earth trees to be scaly!

Joking aside perhaps he viewed their skin as more bark like?

[KGatch113]

Definitive proof that Tolkien also intended Middle Earth trees to be scaly!

Joking aside perhaps he viewed their skin as more bark like?

I've always viewed the "scaly" skin of Godzilla as resembling bark more than the scales on a fish, snake or small lizard. Same with alligators....

[Vermis]

And not just the trees (which, if any are beeches like the logs on the fire, aren't especially scaly for trees), but all the ground, too.

Not to say it's not a valid point, but I think it's subject to a bit of interpretation.  When I first saw it years ago, I took it to be some kind of stippling effect. And despite some of his drawings having interesting effects that heighten the 'fantasy' feel, IMO, the Prof, bless 'im, wasn't much for figure drawing.

On elephantine feet: only a personal conceit, but I'm fond of the idea. Elephants can rear bipedally, and it's assumed sauropods could too, though obviously that's not the same as walking bipedally. Though there are thoughts and hints of evidence that young sauropods and stegosaurs could move bipedally. In addition, an 'elephantine' foot doesn't necessarily mean a simple cylindrical stump at the bottom of a pillar, either broad and featureless or narrow and tottery.

http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/2011/11/gauging-stance-in-wide-gauge-sauropods.html
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2011/12/22/6054/

What's more, assuming middle-earth trolls are creatures that conform to some physical laws as well as made-up magical beings, and as "very large persons", basically humanoid with broadly similar similar limb proportions. I.e. straight legs, long femurs, plantigrade rather than digitigrade, built for supporting weight and walking rather than springy running, and built for supporting the enormous weight of a 10-12 feet (?) tall, proportionately broader-than-human* body... here's a new word for some of you: graviportal.

http://www.geol.umd.edu/~jmerck/bsci392/lecture11/lecture11.html

Scroll halfway down that page, to the comparison with cursors.

Granted, that doesn't demand that trolls should have elephantine feet either. It's still just me own little extrapolation, based on a couple of the Prof's offhand details.

I know the trolls in the second of his drawings have humanlike, toeless feet. Just noticed that again. Though are they supposed to be wearing some kind of shoes or covering? They don't immediately appear to be wearing anything else either, not even something that Bill would have pockets in.

The last piece Arthadan posted... not sure about it. The whole of the legs, not just the feet, look like round featureless stumps. But then the whole thing looks like a lot of fantasy art and concepts these days - nicely rendered but designed to look 'badass' (down to it's little needle-sharp talons) more than anything else.

*Generally depicted and accepted, right?

[Vermis]

I've always viewed the "scaly" skin of Godzilla as resembling bark more than the scales on a fish, snake or small lizard. Same with alligators....

Not-so-fun fact: Godzilla's skin was originally designed to look like keloid scars from the burns of Hiroshima survivors.

[Dilettante Gamer]

Not-so-fun fact: Godzilla's skin was originally designed to look like keloid scars from the burns of Hiroshima survivors.

Wow, happy Friday, Vermis.   

[Froggy the Great]

But now the real question:  Do balrogs have wings?

[throwsFireball]

But now the real question:  Do balrogs have wings?

[Vermis]

Wow, happy Friday, Vermis.   

Don't shoot the messenger! Despite the goofy b-movie reputation that sprang up, original Godzilla was serious business. There's a good write-up of the production history at the TCM site, here. It explains why Godzilla's texture is more barklike than scaly.

For more on-topic monsters...

But now the real question:  Do balrogs have wings?

Yes... and no!