Questions about Tlaxcalteca miniatures

[El Grego]

As my birthday is coming up, I thought that I would splash out some funds on more miniatures       

I'm looking at expanding my Mesoamerican collection with some Tlaxcalteca figures, either from Outpost and/or from TAG, but both companies have a wide variety of miniatures.  As I am away from any notes, I could use some help determining what a decent mix of troop types would be.  How many 'Elites' would there be versus the 'zoomorphic' suit wearers is the big question?  Also, how many of these types would be wearing back banners?  Just need rough estimates but I am trying to be somewhat historical in my approach.

Thanks in advance,

[Lowtardog]

Hi which rules are you planning on using as that might be a clincher for you

[Lowtardog]

Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228

I think ralph went on to do lists for other rules but my interest went when I sold off my armies. Dont forget though you can intermix aztecs with your tlaxcala as they did share some similarities

[El Grego]

Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228

I think ralph went on to do lists for other rules but my interest went when I sold off my armies. Dont forget though you can intermix aztecs with your tlaxcala as they did share some similarities

Thanks for the link - much to go through there!

I did notice that the TAG Aztecs have coyote suits, which do not appear in the TAG or Outpost shops for the Tlaxcala.

As for rules, I am basing the miniatures singly, but aiming for Irregular Wars 2nd edition for the first try.


Greg

[Atheling]

Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228

Gordon Bennit! I remember that well from The WAB Forum! 

Darrell.

[Lowtardog]

Gordon Bennit! I remember that well from The WAB Forum! 

Darrell.

Aye long time ago mate

[Atheling]

Aye long time ago mate

'Tis indeed 

Still, they were goodly days

Darrell.

[FierceKitty]

Coyote suits are frequently illustrated in the codices.

[El Grego]

Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228

Finally read through those lists - great stuff there.

Although it did not help much with my 'elites' vs. 'zoomorphic' dilemma, the lists have given me much food for thought on how to rewrite the Irregular Wars Mesoamerican list to better reflect both the Tlaxcala and the Huaxtec, including how to represent the Tlaxcala coyote suits.  Thanks again!


Greg

[Lowtardog]

Not a problem, some lads who frequent here now and again chronofus and Ralph Krebs have much more knowledge than I do and may comment. I think there are lists in a fields of glory book and sure lists in war and conquest or hail caesar free on the net. It is very hard to work through lists as although the codeces show a myriad of suits it often could depend on the type of battle as to the make up and variety of elite types to the rank and file


Found them, a little more vanilla than WAB
http://scarabminiatures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1049


And for another set
http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/clash-of-empires/army-lists/american-army-lists

[El Grego]

More great lists; thanks again!

At the moment, I do not think the division of the Tlaxcala 'elites' and 'zoomorphics' is a big worry for Irregular Wars 2nd ed. as the army lists have just a 'suit wearers' unit.  Perhaps I am wondering why Outpost has 'elites' and TAG has 'zoomorphics' with no overlap between the two companies.  The best course of action is to get some of each of course     


Greg

[cdm]

I would buy outpost, and where you need a back banner not in their range or replace the couplev wrongly styled ones, buy it from tag if they have it. I would not buy the zoomorphic at all, but you do as you enjoy.

[El Grego]

Thank you, sir.

Outpost it is then, and more digging on the web for info from the Lienzo de Tlaxcala.  It is just a bit strange that two companies have such different offerings for supposedly the same genre.


Greg

[cdm]

Comes down to interest and research.

If you're not a button counter the strange suits wouldn't matter. If you're the kind of person who painted black body paint on your Aztecs exposed flesh, scraped the ridiculous tequihua hairstyle off your novices, along with the shoes and jewelry, then maybe stay away from the zoo suits. And replace the one dimensional outpost back banners with 3 dimensional ones, and only use them as the cabacara banner and not fill out a unit of warriors wearing them. And seriously consider using white body paint and the facial painting style of camaxtla.

Depending how familiar you are with the Lienzo, be aware that the warriors drawn with the Spaniards aren't all tlaxcalans. Look for the details and you'll begin to pick who is who as far as nations go. Sadly the version of the Lienzo which names the warriors pictured - generally they are all specific notable people standing next to the spanish - is hidden away from the world and has never been published. I don't recall the Historia de Tlaxcala making any mention of suits outside of puma, ocelot, bears, coyotes and eagles. It makes the point that the Aztecs, Acolhua and Tlaxcalans had the same military stylings due to their common ancestry traditions.

Don't stress overly about it, 99.9% of people will barely even know anything about the detailing of your warrior army anyway.

[Bowman]

I'll agree with CDM's assessments.

It is true that the Nahuatl speaking nations were derived from the ancient inhabitants of Tollan-Xicocotitlan Tula. The "Relacion Geografica" states that the Acolhua of Teotehuacan wore suits resembling eagles, jaguars, coyotes, deer, herons, ducks, puma and other "animals". I would suppose that the descendant peoples continued that, but may have winnowed out the designs based on artistic and cultural preferences. The Aztecs seemed to have preferred eagles, jaguars and coyotes. The Tlaxcalteca seem to have been more diverse. I thought that in the Lienzo there was an example of a deer suit, but I couldn't find it after a short google search this morning. There is an alligator or cayman suit in the Lienzo. I'm a little happier with the TAG figures than CDM is, and tolerate their "zoomorphic" warriors. Their regular troop Tlaxcaltecs have the twisted headband and the feathered hair ornament. Most wear an ichcahuipilli "flak vest" type of clothing which the rank and file warriors probably did not wear. There was a cotton embargo by the Aztecs and most armour was in the form of henequen and maguay. You have to have some suspension of disbelief if you want to collect Mesoamerican figures. Like CDM says, your opponents probably won't know or care.

As for Outpost, I do like their figures too, especially their Huaxtecs and Incas. Some of their older sculpts have slightly large heads which is off putting. Their Maya suffer from that, but now they are the only game in town at 28mm, and I will be ordering a few in the future from them. They do have some beautifully painted examples of their figures on their website. You should have a look at them.