Project Log: Aztec/Conquistador Project (Updated 3/17)

[Doc Twilight]

Some good thoughts, LTD. Thank you:)

And Captain Blood... Apocalypto sounds like just the ticket, now that I can get Maya;)

(I would actually like to do up some Maya and Inca eventually, now that I'm finally pursuing this line of interest)


Couple thoughts on the Aztecs.

As an archaeologist (well, almost, I still don't have my PHD), I thought I knew a fair amount about the Aztecs. Now, they aren't my area of focus, but I like to think I knew at least a decent amount about them. Now that I've dug into the subject matter again, I'm learning all sorts of things.

For example, the cannibalism. I honestly didn't know about it. I'd heard rumors, but I'd truly believed that these were simply Spanish claims. The Spanish had a lot of legitimate reasons to think that the Aztecs were nasty folks, and vice versa, but I figured the cannibalism thing was just one of those things an impressionable foreigner assume after seeing so many sacrifices or at least hearing about them; sort of the way that the Romans came to believe that the Christians were practicing cannibalism because of the whole "consuming the body and blood of the savior" ritual.

Then I read about just how common cannibalism was among the Aztecs, and frankly, I was shocked. I know I probably shouldn't be, but it was actually new information to me. I'd known about the sacrificing bit, the flayed skin bit, etc... but actually roasting and eating the bodies with tortillas, now that's something new for me.  I had -no- illusions that these were nice people, dancing around in circles and singing kum-ba-yah, but this was a genuine revelation for me.

I'm discovering that this is one of those historical conflicts in which both sides are, to put it bluntly, morally ambiguous to say the very least... Genuine heroes on both sides, yes, but it's hard to look at either the Aztecs or the Spanish and pick "good guys" or "bad guys". Of course, the beauty of adventure gaming in this period is that we can make a big deal of the exceptions, rather than the rules.

On another front, I have been reading some arguments lately that perhaps the idea about Aztec soldiers using weapons unsuited for lethal warfare is a gross oversimplification. Again, I'm by no means any expert, but I do think that's possible. Perhaps some historians have read too much into the Flower Wars phenomenon and assumed this was business as usual for all wars in Meso-America. Impossible to know for certain, but I'd never really bought into the idea that they lost because they didn't traditionally fight to kill.
I do think there's something to the belief that the Flower Wars may have had an effect upon the Aztec -approach- to war in general, but I'm not particularly convinced they fought the Spanish with the intention to knock them out, rather than kill them, especially after some of the early battles.

At any rate, now I'm wondering another thing about the New World cultures, and perhaps someone here can answer the question. It's obvious that the Aztecs performed cannibalism and human sacrifice, and that so too did the Maya. Did the Inca? I know about their mummy based cults, the extreme veneration of ancestors, etc, but I'm not sure that I can recall much about human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. Anybody know?


-Doc

[Lowtardog]

I will try and reply on my very limited knowledge which is on reading secondary and tertiary sources

For example, the cannibalism. I honestly didn't know about it. I'd heard rumors, but I'd truly believed that these were simply Spanish claims. Then I read about just how common cannibalism was among the Aztecs, and frankly, I was shocked. I know I probably shouldn't be, but it was actually new information to me. I'd known about the sacrificing bit, the flayed skin bit, etc... but actually roasting and eating the bodies with tortillas, now that's something new for me.  I had -no- illusions that these were nice people, dancing around in circles and singing kum-ba-yah, but this was a genuine revelation for me.

**Yes they did but not to such a large extent, now something I am working on are the Brazilian indians...they were pukka cannibals with the Tupi indians practrising ritualistic "vendetta" cannibalism in intertribal wars whilst the Aimore and other Ge Indians hunted and fought for food! The Portuguese accounts are horrific with whole colonies being eaten

I'm discovering that this is one of those historical conflicts in which both sides are, to put it bluntly, morally ambiguous to say the very least... Genuine heroes on both sides, yes, but it's hard to look at either the Aztecs or the Spanish and pick "good guys" or "bad guys". Of course, the beauty of adventure gaming in this period is that we can make a big deal of the exceptions, rather than the rules.

**Yes both brutal, and evil whilst being herioc in their own way very much a perception from a christian point of view too. I think of the Aztecs as similar to Spartans who were an evil bunch but heroic

On another front, I have been reading some arguments lately that perhaps the idea about Aztec soldiers using weapons unsuited for lethal warfare is a gross oversimplification. Again, I'm by no means any expert, but I do think that's possible. Perhaps some historians have read too much into the Flower Wars phenomenon and assumed this was business as usual for all wars in Meso-America. Impossible to know for certain, but I'd never really bought into the idea that they lost because they didn't traditionally fight to kill.
I do think there's something to the belief that the Flower Wars may have had an effect upon the Aztec -approach- to war in general, but I'm not particularly convinced they fought the Spanish with the intention to knock them out, rather than kill them, especially after some of the early battles.

**Yes a popular debate, the Flower wars were devisive and a means to kepp other city states such as the Tlaxcalans and Tarsacans etc in check whilst expanding their territory through conquest. As you say there were major flaws or rather disadvantages of obsidian weapons against steel, although sharp cutting edges they were brittle and would break and the technique was a slashing one rather than stabbing as a result which played into the Spanish techniques of swordsmanship often over stated.

What is oft over looked in a lot of writing about the campaign is the Indian allies, even at the seige of Tenoshtitlan there were less than 2,000 Spanish, what is not so often mentioned is that the Tlaxcalans and other allies numbered in the region of 20,000. And once Alvarez had "assassinated their high command (which led eventually to La Noche Triste) their fighting elite and command structure was severly damaged, that and smallpox would have heavily damaged their fighting capacity.

At any rate, now I'm wondering another thing about the New World cultures, and perhaps someone here can answer the question. It's obvious that the Aztecs performed cannibalism and human sacrifice, and that so too did the Maya. Did the Inca? I know about their mummy based cults, the extreme veneration of ancestors, etc, but I'm not sure that I can recall much about human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. Anybody know?

***Inca didnt however some of their indian allies and auxiliaries certainly did similalrly with the Maya, however as said earlier the Brazilian indians thrived on it

[Doc Twilight]

Today, I finished a rough layout of the board.

It will consist of four 2x2 sections, including a Temple, Residential, Market, and "Royal" district. I haven't decided for certain yet whether these will be deployed in a large square, or staggered, etc. I'm tentatively going to begin playtesting and designing with the square shape in mind, but the boards will be modular enough, I think, to accommodate any shape I decide to go with.

The majority of the temple buildings and statuary will be from Stonehouse Miniatures, a US based company. They do some very nice work, and come in a decent looking stone color, although like Low Tar Dog and his group, I'm thinking that they will need to be repainted. I don't know how elaborate I will go with this, but most of the painted reconstructions I've seen show them with white as a base color, at minimum (as do the beautiful pics from LTD's project). I'm not sure if I will be painting the murals, too. Depends upon how enthusiastic/creative I get, but at any rate, these pieces will be a very good start. I will try to get some shots of them when I receive them.

The rest of the buildings, with the exception of a generic stone fountain that I already own from the Miniature Building Authority, will be Acheson Creations/Arrow Miniatures buildings. This is a nice little collection, and includes various upper class and lower class dwellings, granaries in two varieties, and some other structures. They can be ordered pre-painted, but I don't think I'll be going that route.

I have already ordered the pieces from Stonehouse, and of course the miniatures from Eureka are on their way (they'd already be here if it weren't for my bank deciding suddenly the other day that overseas purchases, which I make regularly, were suddenly an indication of fraud... resulting in an unfortunate delay, and a much annoyed me at 3am working out details with the bank, but I digress...).. The Arrow/Acheson buildings will be ordered next paycheck. I already have the rest of my materials, so it's just a matter of getting everything painted up.

The plan at the moment is to go with the looting scenario, as I believe it allows for a little more scope for the purposes of a one-off typed game. If I can work out the Noche Triste angle instead, so much the better, but at the very least, these buildings should make the Noche Triste campaign in "Among the War Parties" playable.

I am enjoying thumbing through Gloire, and looking forward to doing a lot with it.  Let me just say again that Pete has done a fantastic job. He's captured the genre beautifully. I'm hoping to do some Solo gaming for my own purposes, as well as multi-player stuff with my group. There is a good looking Solo campaign in "Among the War Parties", and perhaps there are others out there (if anybody has solo scenarios for the game, or any of the other games in the Rattrap stable, I'd love to see them.. I enjoy solo gaming, as I have a lot of free time during the day when I'm not digging or writing).   At the very least, I will have to adopt some of my favorite Solomon Kane adventures. (Brigade makes a passable Solomon Kane, though I'm still hoping for that perfect casting to pop up, one of these days). Of course, now I have an excuse to use the Highwaymen models I've always admired but haven't had a use for, the occasional Baroque Assassin, the Zorro Figs that Malamute is working on... Lots of good stuff. And hey, if I can at least get some solo games out of them, so much the better.

In the meanwhile, while I await the arrival of the pieces necessary for this project, I am continuing with my re-education in matters Aztec. It's quite a fascinating, if bloodthirsty, civilization.

I'm recalling something that happened several years ago. I had a prof in undergrad that I liked a lot. Tended to work with a lot of the Central American stuff, particularly the Maya. Anyway, one day we were sitting in class discussing the Paleolithic. And one of my classmates, one of those guys who's always wearing a Che Guevara shirt and spouting off about politics he hasn't a clue about, raised his hand and started an interesting exchange.

"Professor," he said, "isn't it true that some of our ancestors were vegetarians? That they managed to live without killing other animals."
"Yes," he said, "the Archaeological record makes it clear that at least some of the early humans were vegetarians."
"What happened to them?" my politically astute classmate asked.
"We ate them," came the reply.

LTD, thanks for clarifying the Inca bit. I wasn't sure about that part. I think the Tupi project sounds interesting, though. Planning a big game with them? You'll have to share some photos, at least, if you're working on something. The Tupi are the perfect stereotypical jungle cannibal opponents!

Thanks for following along, folks. More info to come as fast as I have something productive to show for it.
-Doc

[Doc Twilight]

Another brief update:

This week, I received my miniatures order from Eureka. They really are lovely pieces, these miniatures in the Aztec and Conquistador range, and I can't recommend them highly enough. I am very satisfied that my money was well spent. Here are some links to the Eureka website and the relevant miniatures purchased.

I should note that the size of these miniatures is quite impressive - these are big 28s. Having not seen the TAG miniatures in the flesh, I can't say for certain that they'd mix well, so I'm glad I stuck with getting all my minis from Eureka for this particular project.
Aztecs -

Eagle Knights...

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1707

Cayman Knights...

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1708

War Priests with back banners...

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1711

Cuachic Warriors...

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1713

Huaxtec Suit Warriors...

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1712

Novices with armor...

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1703

Novices with atlatl...

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1701

Aztec Sacrifice!

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1714

I also picked up several of the native bearer types.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1716


Will save you the grief of so many links and post up links to the Conquistadors I purchased tomorrow.

Overall, I am quite satisfied with these miniatures. Not a bit of flash. Nice, deeply sculpted detail. I think they will paint up quickly, and hopefully look halfway decent on the tabletop.

One item that I regret not picking up is a set of the Jaguar Warriors. I had intended to do so, but forgot to click the box;) I'll probably order those before I run the full game, though I think I've got plenty of other stuff to use at this point. Just feels odd to have Aztecs and no Jaguars. The Cayman Knights, are so far as I can tell a bit of fantasy, but they were just too lovely to pass up, so they'll definitely see some use.

 I'm already planning another Eureka order, as those lovely VSF Prussians with rocket packs are finally back!

-Doc

[Captain Blood]

I should note that the size of these miniatures is quite impressive - these are big 28s. Having not seen the TAG miniatures in the flesh, I can't say for certain that they'd mix well

Well I can tell you for a fact the TAG minis are SMALL - both height wise and diminutive in stature. People assure me they are 'true 28mm', but they look and feel to me more like 25mm. This applies both to the Flower Wars range (sculpted by Mark Sims) and the Renaissance range (sculpted by Nick Collier - although to be fair I haven't seen his new conquistadors in the flesh yet... )

So if Eureka are at the large end of the 28mm universe, they certainly won't sit comfortably alongside TAG figures.

[commissarmoody]

Hey twilight, what sorce info are you useing for your Aztecs? I am looking into doing a centrol amrican adventer myself.

[Lowtardog]

I have lots of the eureka figures myself, infact more than half the army are Eureka with the remainder Foundry and a few TAG. Cap`n Blood is right the TAG are small however there are some subtle changes in style in the Eureka, the novice warriors tend to be a little flat whilst the suit wearers are generally great sculpts. Their sacricial set is great too

The best and easiest srouce for reading on the conquest and other conquests is the Heath book sold by Foudnry a must have on your book shelf.

[Doc Twilight]

Commissar Moody -

The Osprey books are a good start; the Pohl book is not very impressive (not many color plates), and I was warned away from the Wise book.  I don't have the Heath Book (yet), but I've got plenty of other sources in the meanwhile. LTD knows what he's talking about, and I've heard the recommendation from others, so I'll be picking up a copy as soon as I can find one.

In the meanwhile, though, there is actually a surprisingly useful amount of information on the internet, in this case, most of it is pretty decent. I would suggest beginning your search there. Here are a couple useful, approachable web based sources to start with.
The first is a basic painting guide over at Balagan.

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/iberia/1492/mexico/painting_guide_aztec.htm

The second, "Meet the Aztecs", is a useful dissection of the current DBM "Aztec" list, but it has a good deal of very helpful information about how the Aztec Army worked, the various distinctions, weapons, etc.  There's also an extensive bibliography.

http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/lylat/11/meet_the_aztecs.htm

-Doc

[Lowtardog]

For a great free resource on colours of costume and shields here is the best place to go, a book in the making so to speak

http://www.chronofus.net/php/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54

[Doc Twilight]

Another brief update.

I went ahead and placed another Eureka order to get those Jaguar Warriors. Turns out that I did, indeed, fail to click the correct box when ordering the miniatures the first time around; not a big deal at all, just sort of a pain to have to wait another week for them.
Here's a link to the Eureka Jaguar Warriors.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1710

I also ordered a few... err.. other figures. Not exactly related to this project, but I couldn't resist, seeing that they were finally back in production.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=10604

I promised some links to the Conquistador figures I'll be using for the project, and so, here you are. As with the Aztecs, these are all Eureka sculpts. I am very pleased with them, my objection to the scarcity of clean-shaven types not withstanding. Very nice figures, they stand up well with the Aztecs, and have just as much personality and deep cast detail. Should prove to be very enjoyable to paint.

First,an officer casting done by Eureka. Probably my least favorite of the range I ordered, still a nice figure, and I'm sure he'll paint up well regardless.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=9225

Next, a standard bearer. Very nice fig, this. I intend to do his flag as painted linen, using a method I learned from Wargames, Soldiers, and Strategy.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9226

I also picked up the Priest figure. My initial plans are to use this fellow as the "Good" guy, the one who has to rescue innocents rather than plunder/kill in order to achieve his objectives.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9228

Unfortunately, this is the only "man of the cloth" in the Conquistador range. However, Eureka also makes a range of "hooded/cowled cultists" who look very much the part of Renaissance era Monks. I ordered four of these. They match up nicely in size, although they are slightly older sculpts, so still use the Slotta-Base type bases that Eureka miniatures originally had, rather than the integral bases that most of their sculpts now come with.

These should be extremely flexible figs. They'll go well for a variety of periods, and as I already have a group of angry Bavarian nuns for my Wahehe War games... well, the possibilities are endless;)

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_140&products_id=1815

I ordered several of the "Swordsmen in Armor" and "Swordsmen in Quilted Armor" figs. A lot of dynamic poses here; characterful, energetic, just brilliant for Swashbuckling type games. Very pleased with these.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9220
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9221

Next, some Halberdiers. Again, very nice work on these, I think. Unlike some period figs I could speak of, these actually come with
solid, well cast weapons. I don't have to buy a separate "accessory pack", nor do I have to fool about with wire spears and hammers. They are open handed, though, which is great for having some options to play around with.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9222

Finally, my favorite figs in the range. These were what sold me on the Eureka Conquistadors. The arquebus men! These are perfect for the period, and the detail is stunning. I actually had the pleasure of excavating pieces of weapons just like these a few years ago, and seeing some reproductions fired not long after. Impressive, if bulky, piece of equipment. The only Conquistadors I know of that come with the firing platform for the weapon; TAG doesn't seem to do them, and I don't think the Foundry Conquistadors have them, either.

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9224

Were I to add to this collection, I think I'd pick up one or two of the dog handlers:

http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9232

Not crazy about the handler himself, but the dogs are great!

That's where I am at this point. I am still waiting on the terrain from Stonehouse Miniatures, but will get some photos of the pieces when I receive them, and post them here. Not sure when they'll arrive - Stonehouse is one of those Internet based companies that doesn't send email receipts, so... while I'm certain they got my order, not sure when or if the items have shipped yet *grumble*.

I am also planning to pick up some magnetic bases for these fellows this weekend, after which point I can finally begin painting the suckers. Hope to have some eye candy for you soon.

-Doc

[Lowtardog]

A nice collection, if you check on that Chronofus link he has a lot fo un released Conquistadors which would fit in too in nice poses a little later as they are Portuguese but some are very nice.

On dogs, the nicest I have seen and use are the Vendel Mastiff

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/TheFeatheredSerpentProject/TheFinalStagesFallOfTenochtitlan#5085280854212065170

[Doc Twilight]

You're right, LTD, those Mastiffs are great. I'm going to have to look into those. I bet they'd work well with some Ngoloks/Tibetans for Back of Beyond type games too, and for Romans, and... Good find!

Looked for those unreleased conquistadors, couldn't find them. Any suggestions? Were they Foundry minis, or from another mfg?

-Doc

[Lowtardog]

They are Eureka but not on general release, I sent a pleading e-mail to Nic at Eureka who is a great bloke and used the photos form Chronofus forum to help me place the order. From what I understand not all are released until Erueka beleive they have a complete range and the studio miniatures are painted (which is a great idea) hence not on their website

Best bet is to drop him a line first and link him to your thread here as I am sure he would be very interested in it. There are also some unreleased Tlaxcalans and a cople of Aztecs on Chronofus site, I think he buys into getting pre-releases and is a wealth on knowledge on lots of Eureak figures and eye candy

http://www.chronofus.net/php/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19


Regards

Karl.

[Lowtardog]

The Mastiffs are ideal for lots of periods, reportedly Romans and Ancient Britons used them, you can use them for medieval as hunting dogs, Henry V111 and Elizabeth used them for war and in Ireland and cotland and then you have the new world

Vendel were recently bought over in the UK and I think it is Stafford games who sell them now

[Lowtardog]

Check out the TAG Conquistadors (spanish threads) and also the Neopolitan Pike (with a swap to halberds would make good conquistadors too

http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=5