Swordpoint...

[SteveBurt]

I must admit. I love Saga and have a couple of hundreds of different viking models including a lot of plastic too. And luckily I used 20mm bases for other reasons and not the standard 25mm Saga bases, but I am baffled they create a new wargame using 20mm bases when the already have a hugely popular wargame using 25mm.

Saga has very suitable models for Swordpoint and even though Swordpoint could be played with larger bases with some rule amendments, I am just deeply baffled they went that route... I guess they reason more historic wargamers have 28mm models on 20mm size bases, but it is odd when their loyal customers for the most part have based their Saga models on 25.

I just don't understand that move...

Saga doesn't have a 'standard' base width. The rules say anything with at least 20mm per figures is OK.
My own Saga stuff is all based on 20mm squares.

[Draccan]

and yet they supply 25mm bases and most people I met based their forces that way

[SteveBurt]

So if you are playing against others with 25mm bases, use 4 figures on a 50mm square.
If you are playing against someone with 40mm square bases as per the rules, either they put their bases on a 50mm square sabot, or you make 40mm square bases with a couple of figures on them; it's the number of bases, not the number of figures, which matters in the rules.

It's not hard to solve these sorts of problems.

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

So if you are playing against others with 25mm bases, use 4 figures on a 50mm square.
If you are playing against someone with 40mm square bases as per the rules, either they put their bases on a 50mm square sabot, or you make 40mm square bases with a couple of figures on them; it's the number of bases, not the number of figures, which matters in the rules.

It's not hard to solve these sorts of problems.

But it's an added barrier to entry. I know I'm personally less excited about Swordpoint because of it.

[Draccan]

With a single friend or two this may not matter so much, but as soon as you enter a competition or league you will probably have the problem. You can't go there and expect all 20mm players to provide solutions.

I just don't get Gripping Beast on this one. They should respect how they urged their Saga players to base their models.

It would be so much easier the other way around.

[A Lot of Gaul]

Oh well, Kings of War historical is looking pretty good still

Kings of War also uses 20mm square basing for individual "core" close-order infantry, e.g. 100mm x 40mm for a 5-figure-wide, 2-rank-deep "Troop." Just sayin'.

[A Lot of Gaul]

I just don't get Gripping Beast on this one. They should respect how they urged their Saga players to base their models.

I understand that you are disappointed, but I don't think anyone is being "disrespected" here. These are simply two very different games, played at two very different scales. 25mm per individual figure is perfectly appropriate basing for a skirmish game, and some SAGA-based figures can always be used for skirmishers in Swordpoint. Most SAGA players would need to greatly expand their skirmish-sized forces for Swordpoint, in any case, and the additional figures can be based for the new system. Or SAGA players can adapt their existing forces by using one of the quite reasonable suggestions already provided by others in this discussion. 20mm frontage per close-order infantry figure is simply the de facto "standard" for 28mm mass battle Ancients gaming. IMHO the author of Swordpoint is wise to acknowledge that.

And just so you know where I am coming from, all of my Ancients armies are comprised of 18mm figures, while Swordpoint is written for 28mm armies. Even so, I wouldn't let that prevent me from purchasing and enjoying the rules, if that is what I ultimately choose to do.
 

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

Kings of War also uses 20mm square basing for individual "core" close-order infantry, e.g. 100mm x 40mm for a 5-figure-wide, 2-rank-deep "Troop." Just sayin'.

Difference being that KoW uses set unit sizes. A horde is always 200mm x 80mm, a regiment is always 100mm x 80mm and a troop is 100mm x 40mm, so it's easy to make sabot trays to take 25mm rounds. Having to work in multiples of 40mm makes things tougher, and creating a separate collection of 40mm x 40mm sabots to take 25mm rounds is a tougher prospect because you don't have as much creative space on a 40 x 40 as you do on a 200 x 80.

It's certainly a solve-able problem, just an added barrier to entry. But basing is always going to be hard for a games developer to address. You want to appeal to the largest potential player base as possible, and give them the least amount of fuss necessary to get their models on the table. I'm sure they considered solutions that looked at easily using 25mm rounds, given their connection to SAGA and it's use of 25mm rounds, but as you say most large scale combat games use different basing styles so it would have been a tough choice for them to make.

I'll reserve my final judgement until I see the rules, because there may be some sort of basing solution I can work out, but at the moment I'm slightly less excited about these rules than I was.

[Madhouse Workshop]

Basing is much to do about nothing imo.  If you want to blame someone, blame Studio Tomahawk for allowing round bases upto 30mm.  I play SAGA with my Vikings on 20mm squares, I play WAB, Clash of Empires, Lion Rampant, Dragon Rampant, with all of the same basing.  I could play Hail Caesar with the same basing but I don't like the game. 

I look forward to Swordpoint based on what I have read, because I like big historical games and believe it will be a much different game than HC and likely quite different from WAB as well.

So, you have a Saga force based on 25mm rounds, How big is that force?  30-40-50-60 models?  You likely are going to need more than that anyways to play a big game, typically.  So far what I see from KoW doesn't impress me.

[SteveBurt]

Basing is much to do about nothing imo.  If you want to blame someone, blame Studio Tomahawk for allowing round bases upto 30mm.  I play SAGA with my Vikings on 20mm squares, I play WAB, Clash of Empires, Lion Rampant, Dragon Rampant, with all of the same basing.  I could play Hail Caesar with the same basing but I don't like the game. 

I look forward to Swordpoint based on what I have read, because I like big historical games and believe it will be a much different game than HC and likely quite different from WAB as well.

So, you have a Saga force based on 25mm rounds, How big is that force?  30-40-50-60 models?  You likely are going to need more than that anyways to play a big game, typically.  So far what I see from KoW doesn't impress me.

Just stick each Saga model on a 40mm square base with blu-tack. Then you'll have enough models, because you only need 1 per base, and you'll have bases the right size.

[A Lot of Gaul]

Just stick each Saga model on a 40mm square base with blu-tack. Then you'll have enough models, because you only need 1 per base, and you'll have bases the right size.

Now that is a simple and elegant solution!  

[jcspqr]

All my 28mm stuff is individually based (on 25mm round bases). It makes no difference to me whether a unit is 40mm swaure or 50mm square. What bothers me is wasting all that game time taking out HUNDREDS of figures and having to put them all on sabot bases and, at the end of the game, having to take HUNDREDS of figures off and put them all away again.
No.

Yeah, I can see your point.  that might take 10 minutes before and after your game.

Sorry.  i just don't see how basing is even an issue.  We play multiple different games, everyone has their favorites, and if a unit's basing is off for one system versus another, we never make a point of it and jsut work around it.

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

So, you have a Saga force based on 25mm rounds, How big is that force?  30-40-50-60 models?

100+

The thought of rebasing that many models, or all those models not being usable because their bases are wrong, doesn't fill me with joy. Not the end of the world, and there's probably a solution available that isn't TOO much work, but when I've already got plans to play KoW historical and make up bases for that game, it makes me less enthusiastic to take up Swordpoint. I'll try and get a good grasp of the mechanics for the game before I drop any cash on it, that's for sure.

So far what I see from KoW doesn't impress me.

I think I already know the answer, but why not?

[Madhouse Workshop]

Just stick each Saga model on a 40mm square base with blu-tack. Then you'll have enough models, because you only need 1 per base, and you'll have bases the right size.

I don't even need to do that.  I just put them on movement trays and BAM! I'm done.

[Nord]

So why are you here in this thread, if you have no intention of playing and no intention of rebasing? All the time you spent complaining here, you could have rebased your figures by now.