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Author Topic: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread  (Read 5036 times)

Gabbi

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[Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« on: December 31, 2016, 06:34:17 PM »
Here it is another first impressions thread. Played today our very first game. We stripped down rules to the very basics: two crews composed of: two troopers, one elite, one heavy weapon, one leader. Leader and heavy weapon were slightly different, the emaining three were exactly the same across the two crews. Almost every model was from AT-43 prepainted line.
We didn't used any of the mission and environment tables and settled for a basic kill'em all type of game.

When yesterday I've prepared the crews I was a bit upset by how dispersive the book is, on how many traits and special rules I would be supposed to remember and so on... But I have to say, as others before me have already stated, that the game actually flows more slick than you could think by just looking at the rulebook. Sure, a QRSheet is the basic minimum I would expect in a book so dense in tables, but hopefully that will come somewhat in the near future. In the meantime I've made a quick and dirty one myself.

Here are some pics:


The battlefield. All Infinity foldable terrain.
Not the best in variety, but it's very handy if you have to move to play your game.






First casualty of the game :(


But I'll have my revenge: see that armored suit up there...?  >:D


All in all, a fun and brutal game. We've already decided for a second game next week :)
This times we'll use the full rules for scenario generation.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 05:26:34 PM by Gabbi »

Gabbi

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Re: Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 05:08:52 PM »
Played another game. This time, we used full rules.

First of all, the squads:

My Tyranids (Militia, Hive Mind).



Tyranid Warrior: Extra Arms, Claws, Leadership, Veteran, Tough.
Plasma Rifle (count as Deathspitter), Light Combat Dress (count as carapace).
50pts
2x Genestealers: Insectoid, Extra Arms, Claws, Ambidexterity, Fast 2, Weapon Master 2, Reactive.
2x45, 90pts
2x Termagants: Insectoid, Extra Arms, Claws, Fire into Melee (hive control), Diminutive, Assault Rifle (count as Fleshborer).
2x30, 60pts.

Friend's COGs (Bounty Hunters, Hard to Kill).



- Ambidexterity, Difficult Target, Stealth, 2x Vibro Blades, Stealth Suit
- Ambidexterity, Veteran, Hvy Blaster, Power Armour
- Ambidexterity, Plasma Rifle, Combat Dress
- Ambidexterity, Leader, 2x Molecular Slug, Light Power Armour

We rolled the scenario with gladiatorial combat, but re-rolled it (requiring to change squad layout once I've done it is simply bad game design, if you ask me), and got the capture enemy scenario. As condition, we got the EMP-whatever (on roll of 1 weapons malfunction). A bit odd for Tyranids, that use organic weapons, but we kept it as is.

Sadly, I have to say that I think I don't like the game very much. It's not the loads of tables, it's not the randomness, but these two factors together makes me not enjoying the experience. If I have to deal with a fiddly and clunky ruleset, I'll do, but the experience has to be worthy. Sadly, I don't think it's the case: the outcome of the battle is too much tied to the die roll and so very unrewarding. To make a different example, Frostgrave also use the D20, and also more often than not the modifiers you can try to achieve for you (by playing smart) won't make a big difference, as the variance of the die roll result is very wide, but Frostgrave has a very straightforward ruleset, it's very easy to pick up and everything fits in a "light" game experience. Here we have a cumbersome ruleset that doesn't rewards good play, imho. Maybe I'll give the game one more chance, most probably I'll try Void Pirates next.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 05:28:10 PM by Gabbi »

Offline stone-cold-lead

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Re: Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 05:24:29 PM »
I think I'm missing something. What's the rule set?

EDIT: That'll teach me to click recent threads in the side bar. I'm such a nob.  lol


Gabbi

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 05:27:02 PM »
You're right anyway, added game name in title :)

Offline wulfgar22

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 06:58:34 PM »
Great stuff!

Offline Jan

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2017, 05:40:06 PM »
Hello,

Void Pirates ist easy to play, but i miss a mechanism in the rules that shines. Very flat. Didn't like it. You can make it better of course. For example add an interesting activation System like in Rogue Stars, Bolt Action, or Fistful of Lead.

I realy want a game, with simple mechanisms that generate tough decisions and/or excitement and/or recourse management. 

Due to this preferences one of the best rulessets of all time for me is EDEN (Happy Games Factory). A genius who made them (only shooting is a bit too fidely)!

The core rules of the LotR Ruleset are great, too (heroism points combined with the activation system + nice close combat system that generate real battle lines).

But yeah, to find some in the SciFi Setting of this sort of quality is hard, so that i am writing my own now.

Good luck.
X-Wing | Oak & Iron | Old West & Sci-Fi Skirmish (WiP)

Gabbi

  • Guest
Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2017, 07:33:44 PM »
Uhm, don't know. I do love games based on the "Song of" engine (albeit being sold the same rule system over and over again has somewhat worn me a bit), but while Rogue Stars is also the most original and "different" iteration of the system (to date), it also has lost most of its capability to generate the tough decisions you're mentioning. Since two failures on activation roll does not cause turnover anymore, I really don't see any point in rolling fewer than three dice every time. Anyway, that's not the point. As said, my issue with the game is the combination of clunky-ness and randomness: the latter makes me unwilling to justify the first.

Also, on "flat" ruleset, I'm not so straight adverse. Sure I too prefer -as a long time gamer- rulesets with some distinctive aspect, with personaliry, with that genius solution that makes them stand among others. And yet, one of the games I like the most to play is Dark Age (CMoN), that has a ruleset very "vanilla", apart maybe the "squadlink" idea, is a very "plain" ruleset. Notwithstanding, everything is so well assembled, the game is so streamlined that everything feels "right". Plus, it's a very brutal game: enter combat, and something will die. This leads to fast games that reward very aggressive playstyle. Totally love it, trifling that I don't consider a very original system. It's fun, I enjoy it, what else should matter? I'll be willing to play a game right now, if I had the chance. Thinking on playing a game of Rogue Stars makes me willing to check what's on TV this night.

Regarding Eden, I've seen the miniatures around the web, but never considered it (as none of the factions had ever caught my eye/imagination). I see the rules are downloadable for free. Will check them. Thanks for pointing these out.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 07:42:17 PM by Gabbi »

Offline spect_spidey

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2017, 08:16:08 PM »
Uhm, don't know. I do love games based on the "Song of" engine (albeit being sold the same rule system over and over again has somewhat worn me a bit), but while Rogue Stars is also the most original and "different" iteration of the system (to date), it also has lost most of its capability to generate the tough decisions you're mentioning. Since two failures on activation roll does not cause turnover anymore, I really don't see any point in rolling fewer than three dice every time.

Two failures on activation does not cause a turnover automatically. But according to the rules, the non-active player can attempt to take the initiative by spending a reaction. So one failure will give them a chance. Roll three dice and fail to activate on all three, well you just gave them three opportunities to take the initiative if they want. Or attempt to react twice and then try to take the initiative. This roll has a TN of 16, but is modified by non-active player's leadership trait and the number of stress, pin, or wound markers on the active player's crew. This can mean an easy turnover of initiative even if you decide to only roll one dice. You probably will almost always roll three dice on that first activation, but each successful activation adds stress to the crew member. You roll three successful activations, that crew member now has three stress markers and at a -3 to activate them again. This makes them harder to activate a second time, meaning you may not want to risk rolling more than one die as your stress goes up. At the same time, your opponent may not want to perform reactions to keep their stress levels lower in preparation for taking the initiative. Or you may want your opponent to have the initiative, but don't want to necessarily just pass it to them. So you continue to press your luck with activations waiting for them to try and take it. Once they have it, your crew loses all their stress. The tough decisions are still there, I just think they are a different kind. In other Song games, your chance to activate is always the same. In this game, it fluctuates based upon how much you use the same crew member. I also think the scenario can have an impact on your decisions as well. Are you defending an objective? You may want to attempt reactions to maneuver into a better position. Or is your crew better at ranged combat than your attacker? Then you may want to steal the initiative early and light them up before they get within their effective range. Did you design your crew to be better at reacting than activating? Then you might never want to take the initiative.

Gabbi

  • Guest
Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 08:38:41 PM »
You roll three successful activations, that crew member now has three stress markers and at a -3 to activate them again. This makes them harder to activate a second time, meaning you may not want to risk rolling more than one die as your stress goes up.
Nope. the crew member gains stress per action it makes, not per successfull activation. The rulebook clearly states you are not forced to spend all the successfull activations into actions. This just to clarify rules. So I can still want to roll three dice even if I need just two actions, and eventually "wasting" one with no penality.
Anyway, once a model has lot of stress, I still will want to roll three dice, to increase the chance of rolling at least one success: rolling one die once your TN to succeed is above 11 (due to stress tokens), means that you have more chance to gift a free reaction roll to your opponent than getting one action for yourself. So, imo, the only strategy is roll three dice o don't roll at all, whatever the status of your figures. Also, your opponent would need a 10+ to use those missed roll as reactions, not counting eventual stress tokens present on his models (moreover: tokens that once the initiative will swap, will remain on his models).

The more I think about it, the more I think the original Song of Blades and Heroes is a better game. It's simpler yet more challenging, imo.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 08:57:47 PM by Gabbi »

Offline DivisMal

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 09:01:30 PM »
Hello,

Void Pirates ist easy to play, but i miss a mechanism in the rules that shines. Very flat. Didn't like it. You can make it better of course. For example add an interesting activation System like in Rogue Stars, Bolt Action, or Fistful of Lead.

I realy want a game, with simple mechanisms that generate tough decisions and/or excitement and/or recourse management. 

Due to this preferences one of the best rulessets of all time for me is EDEN (Happy Games Factory). A genius who made them (only shooting is a bit too fidely)!

The core rules of the LotR Ruleset are great, too (heroism points combined with the activation system + nice close combat system that generate real battle lines).

But yeah, to find some in the SciFi Setting of this sort of quality is hard, so that i am writing my own now.

Good luck.


Haven't played Void Pirates but I agree with your wishes: simple mechanics, tough decisions, fun games

SoBH is excellent in that regard. Im still not sure if I love or dislike Rogue Stars. Id have loved it to be more SoBH and less complex. Maybe using its shooting rules (which inSoBH are not sufficient for SF IMO) and going to D10 would have been the best?

I'll do this or an SoBH/LotR Crossover one day...

Offline spect_spidey

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 10:35:47 PM »
Nope. the crew member gains stress per action it makes, not per successfull activation. The rulebook clearly states you are not forced to spend all the successfull activations into actions. This just to clarify rules. So I can still want to roll three dice even if I need just two actions, and eventually "wasting" one with no penality.
Anyway, once a model has lot of stress, I still will want to roll three dice, to increase the chance of rolling at least one success: rolling one die once your TN to succeed is above 11 (due to stress tokens), means that you have more chance to gift a free reaction roll to your opponent than getting one action for yourself. So, imo, the only strategy is roll three dice o don't roll at all, whatever the status of your figures. Also, your opponent would need a 10+ to use those missed roll as reactions, not counting eventual stress tokens present on his models (moreover: tokens that once the initiative will swap, will remain on his models).

The more I think about it, the more I think the original Song of Blades and Heroes is a better game. It's simpler yet more challenging, imo.

I do not see the logic in rolling more activation dice than you intend to use. I know that you don't take stress if you don't use them, but you run the risk of giving your opponent reactions or the chance to take the initiative. The reactions would occur before your actions and if they take the initiative, you would lose your successful activations altogether. I don't have the exact math on it. But it would seem to me, the more dice you roll the greater your chance of failing. With a TN of 11, you fail 50% of the time. On one die that gives your opponent a 50% of being able to roll for a reaction or a take the initiative. But if you roll two dice with the same TN, you now have twice as many chances of losing the 50% roll and allowing them a reaction or a take the initiative roll before you act. For the risk you are taking of failing anyways, I just can't see the logic of always rolling three dice if you don't have a plan to use three actions. If all I want or need to do is make one sprint action to get my crew member out of line of sight, I personally wouldn't roll two or three dice to do it. That is giving my opponent one or two chances to do something before I can complete my action even if I succeed. If I only roll the one die, I am either going to make it out of line of sight, my opponent is going to react, or attempt to take the initiative. If they fail to take the initiative or remove my model from play, then I am free to try again. The more I think about it, rolling one die for each activation would seem the better option on subsequent activation attempts of the same model after the first activation. You don't take stress for failing to activate and it minimizes your chances of allowing reactions.

Gabbi

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 11:04:05 PM »
the more dice you roll the greater your chance of failing.
But also the more chance on succeeding.

Quote
With a TN of 11, you fail 50% of the time. On one die that gives your opponent a 50% of being able to roll for a reaction or a take the initiative. But if you roll two dice with the same TN, you now have twice as many chances of losing the 50% roll and allowing them a reaction or a take the initiative roll before you act. For the risk you are taking of failing anyways, I just can't see the logic of always rolling three dice if you don't have a plan to use three actions.
Because if I need, say, two actions, rolling two dice and hoping to get two successes is -unless the involved model someway has a very low TN- very naive.
If I plan to make two actions, and I need 8s, I'll roll 3 dice, not 2, the fact that I'll fail one is very likely due to probability calculation. If I roll just two dice, I'd more likely obtain one success and one failure, than two successes. Rolling again a further activation, this time with penality because the model would have stress, will simply put me in a worse situation: roll one and just hope it will connect, or roll two dice, aiming for one success and one failure? (thus scoring two successes and two failures total, instead of 2:1)
The point -imo- is not playing trying to avaoid your opponent getting reactions, because that's impossible, but playing considering possible reactions.

Quote
If all I want or need to do is make one sprint action to get my crew member out of line of sight, I personally wouldn't roll two or three dice to do it. That is giving my opponent one or two chances to do something before I can complete my action even if I succeed. If I only roll the one die, I am either going to make it out of line of sight, my opponent is going to react, or attempt to take the initiative. If they fail to take the initiative or remove my model from play, then I am free to try again.
You'd roll one die at say 50/50 and hope for the best? Really?
If you roll three, sure your opponent will have one or two chances to react (or steal Initiuative, but only if you have quite a number of stress/pin/wounds, otherwise stealing Initiative would be very unlikely), but he have to make the rolls, at TN10, and after that you will have your action to do. (speaking considering an average result of 2:1 or 1:2).
If you roll just one die, and you fail, your opponent get a chance to react and you get nothing. Your opponent could have done something and you've accomplished nothing, you're at the same point than before.


This said, even taking into account your point of view on activations, to me SBH remains a better game: way more intense and challenging, that require though decisions to be taken, and that achieve it with a simpler and more streamlined set of rules. In comparison, RS is more clunky and less rewarding. Imo, not worth the effort.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 11:37:17 PM by Gabbi »

Offline Manchu

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 10:11:55 PM »
Well the discussion about whether or not to roll more dice than you intend to spend on actions, the back and forth about why you should or shouldn't do so, constitutes a "tough decision" from a gameplay POV, depending on the relevant circumstances.

Gabbi

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 03:06:17 PM »
Well the discussion about whether or not to roll more dice than you intend to spend on actions, the back and forth about why you should or shouldn't do so, constitutes a "tough decision" from a gameplay POV, depending on the relevant circumstances.

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I'll always roll 3 dice, so no tough decisions for me. Can't speak for my interlocutor, but he too seems pretty sure on when he will roll one die only instead of three, so I don't see many tough decisions on his side (and even then, that would still not true for me. For what it counts, another person could consider choosing head or tail a hard choice, that would not make it true for me).

This said, the generation of though choices is a welcome feature in a ruleset, but it's secondary, to me, to the rules system itself. As already said, RS -imo- is too clunky and random to be enjoyable to me. This is for the combinations of the two: I can enjoy a simple and very random game, or a clunky one if I feel the game is worth the effort. RS is -to me- a unrewarding gaming experience. This is my main issue with the game, prior that if it generates hard difficult choices or not.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 03:07:57 PM by Gabbi »

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: [Rogue Stars] Another "first game impression" thread
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 06:20:03 PM »
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I'll always roll 3 dice, so no tough decisions for me. Can't speak for my interlocutor, but he too seems pretty sure on when he will roll one die only instead of three, so I don't see many tough decisions on his side (and even then, that would still not true for me. For what it counts, another person could consider choosing head or tail a hard choice, that would not make it true for me).

I can see circumstances where you'd want to roll only a single dice to minimise the chance of an opponent fulfilling a mission. For example, if you are shooting from cover at an opponent in cover who needs to move 8" to a prisoner and release him, you don't want to risk his getting three reactions in a row that would give him a chance of accomplishing that. So there would be considerable wisdom in just taking single activations. If you fail and he reacts on a single die, he can only leave cover and expose himself to more fire. But if he gets a chance to roll two dice, he might get to the prisoner - while three would give him a chance of accomplishing his objective without being shot at.

I think it's in that sort of knife-edge, inching-towards-the-objective decision-making that Rogue Stars really shines.

 

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