Tolkien Orc Kitbash p.26 - More orcses painted, Precious

[Hammers]

Thank you chaps. Must crack on with the next one!

Honestly, very little. I bought two frames of the Oathmark goblins off eBay. They cost a few pounds. That was the only thing I bought specifically for this. Everything else I had already. I have a pile of about 30 assorted plastic figure kits, and I just draw on those for components as and when I need them. The cost of those kits is sunk and accounted for long ago as far as I’m concerned. Some of them are 10+ years old and almost exhausted, but still yield useful bits for kitbashing. Others, like the recent Victrix Saxons, I will use across many other projects over time. It’s a long term investment in endlessly flexible and long lasting resources 

Thrifty, that.

[Captain Blood]

Thrifty, that.

Thrifty is my middle name

[Swordisdrawn]

Excellent.  the whole thing.

[Jagannath]

Lovely! I'm working on some Oathmark goblins at the moment, so what a treat to find this thread too! It's a lovely kit and looks especially good here.

[Captain Blood]

Thanks Rory. I am somewhat diverted by the ECW at present, but when that starts to pall, I shall get back onto a couple more orcs 

[Jagannath]

And here's me thinking I'd been very clever putting Perry arms on mine....

[white knight]

Those orcs are beautiful! I love all your work, but these to me look like your best work yet. They are simply perfection.

[armchairgeneral]

Interesting reading and great conversions.

I know it is a bit boring from a modelling point of view, but I just feel Tolkien orcs, especially the Uruk-Hai, would be quite uniform in appearance. They were bred to be soldiers after all and so were most likely issued with standardised mass produced equipment and weapons. They were regular troops. The account of the Battle of Pelennor Fields refers to them operating in battalions. I don’t know where this idea of wild looking tribal irregulars comes from. It may be more applicable to the goblins of the Hobbit but not the later orcs who seem more like professionals as their only purpose was to fight for the Dark Lord.

[Hobgoblin]

I know it is a bit boring from a modelling point of view, but I just feel Tolkien orcs, especially the Uruk-Hai, would be quite uniform in appearance. They were bred to be soldiers after all and so were most likely issued with standardised mass produced equipment and weapons.

I'm not sure that's quite right - or at least, I don't think that there's any evidence in the text of their gear being hugely standardised. The Isengarders do seem to have some regularity: helmets with the S-rune, shields with the White Hand, long bows and short swords. But they also had axes, spears and darts - and irregularities of armour, such as the one with an iron collar that notched Gimli's axe. We also know that they made their own gear (it's mentioned in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen), so I don't see why we'd expect any less variety than from other goblin smiths (or smiths elsewhere in the Early Medieval milieu of Middle Earth). Mass production doesn't seem to come into it.

They were regular troops. The account of the Battle of Pelennor Fields refers to them operating in battalions. I don’t know where this idea of wild looking tribal irregulars comes from. It may be more applicable to the goblins of the Hobbit but not the later orcs who seem more like professionals as their only purpose was to fight for the Dark Lord.

Well, we know that the troops of Mordor had quite a bit of variety in their gear. Grishnakh has a knife with a hilt carved with a hideous face. The gear at Cirith Ungol seems quite varied - and the Morgul stuff varied in size and quality from the Tower gear. As well as scimitars and knives, the Mordor orcs used "short stabbing-swords" and short spears with broad heads, as well as bows of horn. And they seem to have dressed in various ways too: head-to-foot mail; hairy breeches; ring-mail shirts; ragged brown; black cloaks; and leather tunics.

Also, the uruks Shagrat and Gorbag don't seem terribly professional as at one stage they're plotting to run off and become brigands "like old times"!

All of that fits pretty well with the good Captain's interpretations, I think!

[AKULA]

I just feel Tolkien orcs, especially the Uruk-Hai, would be quite uniform in appearance. They were bred to be soldiers after all and so were most likely issued with standardised mass produced equipment and weapons. They were regular troops. The account of the Battle of Pelennor Fields refers to them operating in battalions.

The great thing about any Fantasy background is that it is open to interpretation 

Personally I think the references to battalions isn’t a literal one, and owes more to Tolkien’s experience in the Great War...battalion-sized units was perhaps a way of conveying the size of the groupings rather than suggesting a regimented structure?

[Hobgoblin]

The great thing about any Fantasy background is that it is open to interpretation 

Definitely! And it's true, too, that interpretations that diverge quite a bit from what's actually in the text can be really good in their own right.

Personally I think the references to battalions isn’t a literal one, and owes more to Tolkien’s experience in the Great War...battalion-sized units was perhaps a way of conveying the size of the groupings rather than suggesting a regimented structure?

I'm sure that's part of it; there is the "name and number" business, though, and the uruk whip-wielder knowing at a glance where the Cirith Ungol lot were meant to be. I think there's a bit of evidence for orcs being both rag-tag, ill-disciplined warriors and soldiers in a fairly organised military structure at the same time. I suspect that Tolkien's war experiences played into that too.

[armchairgeneral]

I'm not sure that's quite right - or at least, I don't think that there's any evidence in the text of their gear being hugely standardised. The Isengarders do seem to have some regularity: helmets with the S-rune, shields with the White Hand, long bows and short swords. But they also had axes, spears and darts - and irregularities of armour, such as the one with an iron collar that notched Gimli's axe. We also know that they made their own gear (it's mentioned in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen), so I don't see why we'd expect any less variety than from other goblin smiths (or smiths elsewhere in the Early Medieval milieu of Middle Earth). Mass production doesn't seem to come into it.

The reference in The Battle of the Fords of Isen "In Isenguard as yet only the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses". This doesn't mean this mail wasn't made by orc smiths on a massed produced standardised basis. Surely this would to be the most efficient way to equip a large army being masterminded by Saruman.

When I say standardised, I didn’t mean identical. There would have been some variation between smithies. Axes and spears would be used according to preference. I didn’t mean they would all have just swords for example. The iron collar might have been a badge of rank

Well, we know that the troops of Mordor had quite a bit of variety in their gear. Grishnakh has a knife with a hilt carved with a hideous face. The gear at Cirith Ungol seems quite varied - and the Morgul stuff varied in size and quality from the Tower gear. As well as scimitars and knives, the Mordor orcs used "short stabbing-swords" and short spears with broad heads, as well as bows of horn. And they seem to have dressed in various ways too: head-to-foot mail; hairy breeches; ring-mail shirts; ragged brown; black cloaks; and leather tunics.

Also, the uruks Shagrat and Gorbag don't seem terribly professional as at one stage they're plotting to run off and become brigands "like old times"!

All of that fits pretty well with the good Captain's interpretations, I think!

As my comments above really. Just to add though, as the army of Mordor was so vast there would likely be variations across the whole force but no so much in specific units.

When I say professional, I meant they were full time soldiers. Even professional soldiers are known to mutiny, desert and behave without discipline when circumstances dictate.

[Hupp n at em]

Great work as usual, Captain.  Will these bad boys be fighting your existing medieval figures, or will you be doing True-to-Tolkein elves, dwarves, and/or men?

[Captain Blood]

Great work as usual, Captain.  Will these bad boys be fighting your existing medieval figures, or will you be doing True-to-Tolkein elves, dwarves, and/or men?

I quite fancy doing some Gondorians once the Victrix Norman set comes out 

[armchairgeneral]

Personally I think the references to battalions isn’t a literal one, and owes more to Tolkien’s experience in the Great War...battalion-sized units was perhaps a way of conveying the size of the groupings rather than suggesting a regimented structure?

Possibly. However is responding to Hobgoblin, I re-read some of The Battle of the Fords of Isen account and a battalion of Uruks is referred to more than once which seems to imply an organised military structure? He normally refers to orcs as companies or hosts when in large forces.