Looking at new Victrix 12mm scale...

[Tim Haslam]

It’s got me curious on the scale.
Years ago I played FoW a lot but didn’t like the tournament scene and neat rows of tanks lined up to shoot!

So I may consider this scale but play big Bolt Action, so instead of the normal 1000pt game on a 6X4 play say 2000pts on the same table. I only say BA because I know this rule set and I’m comfortable with it, providing you play historical match ups!

So my question or questions,
What else is available in this scale, that’s good quality?
More importantly who makes 12mm scenery?
I suppose 15mm scenery would work?
Again I’m after good quality buildings, rivers etc.

Just having a ramble and a think...

Oh and any dates for the release of the infantry packs from Victrix?

Thanks

[Cubs]

No idea on timescales or terrain, but I imagine a mix of 15mm or 10mm pieces and whatnot would be fine. The renders of the British Infantry look superb. But then, they're just pictures essentially and it's hard to imagine the cast models being this crisp and detailed unless they're also very fragile and too delicate for gaming. Maybe I'm just worrying over nothing. The poses look nice and natural.

It's another stab at 12mm (1:144) though and ... well, why not I guess. Presumably they've done their homework and think there's enough takers to support the scale, or that the models will attract enough new interest. It's still a niche scale though and as much as its fans are sometimes aggressively defensive over any who dares to question the wisdom of launching a range not in 15mm or 20mm, it will have many 'on the fencers' wondering if they can really be bothered to start a new collection from scratch in a new scale. 

[fastolfrus]

10mm scenery might work - Pendraken have some but TTCombat have some (designed for DropZone Commander).

If 12mm is 1:144 there are a few kits around from companies like Dragon, including things like a rail gun (which would be good as terrain)

Minifigs (Caliver Books) have a section marked as 10/12mm but I'm not sure if they are 10 or 12mm or something in between.

[Tim Haslam]

Yeah I’m thinking that.
But I’m also a fan of all the plastic Victrix are realising.
I’m a massive fan of bolt action, if played in the right historical setting, and can’t be bothered learning a new rule set.
So I considered massive bolt action, but still on my 6X4 table.
Plus I’d have to buy both armies, as none of my mates will invest!

So it’s kind of led me down this path..
Thinking keep it simple, post DDay, France/Belgium,
Brits V Germans maybe 3 platoons a side.
Roads, buildings, river, fields and woods.
You get the idea.

Thanks for looking

[Tim Haslam]

Stuff from Caliver would be ideal.
Thanks

[Tim Haslam]

After far too long browsing I’m now thinking this project may be better using the vast supplies of 15mm figures available!! 

[Splod]

While it's the wrong period, isn't Battlegroup: NORTHAG from Plastic Solider Company in 1:144? I know that Piers (V on this forum) has created some fantastic tables using model railway kit. I believe the closest gauge would be N Gauge?

I've been looking at the recent renders from Victrix and am starting to think that it's a good middle ground between 6mm and 15mm. I've previously dismissed 15mm games as due to the way infantry are based I fail to see the benefit in 15mm over 6mm. If I had my time again I think I may look at 12mm rather than 6mm. There's sufficient detail in infantry models to distinguish units even at a distance, and a battalion (6 - 10 tanks) doesn't take up too much space on the table. I can't imagine 12mm would replace 20mm as my skirmish scale of choice.

Maybe the benefit of my 6mm collection is that I can field a brigade a side on a 4' x 4' table, which would be a significant struggle at a larger scale. Maybe 12mm will become the micro-modeller's scale of choice for gamers with room for  a 12' x 8' table?

++EDIT++
Just checked out the webstore. At £21.95 for 6 tanks, I don't think I'll be changing scale anytime soon. I can buy 2.5 packs of 1/285 GHQ for that price, or a box of 3x 1/72 tanks from PSC.

[fred]

I’m a long time 10mm gamer, across many periods including WWII.

As far as I know no-one has seen the new Victrix figures and tanks against any of the existing ranges to know how they compared size wise.

IIRC Pendraken scale their 10mm figures to 1/150. 12mm is generally taken as 1/144 which really would be very close in size. And I have some of the Dragon and Takara plastic tanks which fit well enough with the metal ones from Pithead and to a lesser extent from Pendraken.

Infantry wise, Pithead, Pendraken and Minifigs are pretty compatible- Minifigs tend to be skinnier than the other two.

Tanks wise Pithead are generally bigger than the other two, but often by not much, and newer Pendraken can be a bit larger than older ones.

I think it is worth noting that there are variances in all these ranges (as there are in many ranges of minis) they have been produced over fairly long periods of time.

Kallistra is the main outlier in the current 10/12mm space (although they don’t currently do WWII) their figures are distinctly bigger than Pendraken / Pithead / MF.

Terrain wise, there is lots around - N Gauge is the model railway scale to look at. Some 6mm and some 15mm stuff can work too. Rivers and roads and trees and hills are pretty scale independent.

I am interested to see the Victrix stuff - but already have loads of most of the stuff they are making, and the prices aren’t that exciting either.

If you already have 15mm stuff, I’m not sure that this would be a useful change in scale, stuff isn’t going to be materially smaller to make a difference on what you can practically play with. But stepping down from 20mm gives you much more space to play with, a tank takes up about quarter the size of a 20mm one. And the reverse is true if stepping up from 6mm, 10/12mm figures are much bigger and it is much easier to work out what weapons they have. 

[Keith]

I'd recommend a look at the Arrowhead Miniatures range too if you are considering this scale. Their kits are 12mm-1/144th and very nice. Lots of options to fill in the less common vehicles in particular and they have a lot of excellent softskins etc.
I really like the Timecast buildings which are particularly suitable for NW Europe.

I do WW2 in almost every scale going (sadly) but do find 1/144 ideal for anything involving armour and movement. I'll be revisiting at some point when the Victrix infantry are released.

Here are some (very) old pics of both Arrowhead and Timecast bits and pieces. These must be well over ten years old but hopefully give some idea of the quality of both.

[SJWi]

As someone who started 1/200 WW2 many, many years ago I would advise caution....

Think why you are dropping down from 20mm ( if you are!).  Some of this decision may be driven by the ruleset you plan to use.  Particularly as regards the treatment of infantry

Before 15mm was as popular  as today, I saw 1/200 as a "perfect scale" for combined arms WW2 and Cold War. My experiences with 1/300 saw infantry play no role in any game, but in 1/200 they seemed to have something to do and they actually looked menacing!  However the original Skytrex "Action 200" was probably 8-9mm......when this morphed into 10mm nothing seemed compatible.

I now have WW2 in 20mm, 15mm and 1/200. I still wonder how it happened.
     

[fred]

Skytrex 1/200 is a unique scale (as far as I can tell), 8mm is probably a good description of it. The tanks are much smaller than 10mm ones from Pendraken et al, and much bigger than 6mm. Also the tanks show their age and are really quite simple models compared with current offerings.

But the danger of multiple scales for the same period is true. I have managed to end up with WWII British for the Western desert in 10mm, 15mm and 28mm. For other theatres I have been more disciplined and have 10mm, with just a few 28mm British Paras.

[SJWi]

As Fred says, anyone thinking of Skytrex needs to really check them out. They are not compatible with anything else, and the infantry are rubbish. I actually use Magister Militum's "large 6mm" Mainforce Miniatures with my Vietnam collection. The models range from very crude ( eg some of the early WW2 German stuff) to extremely nice ( Vietnam).

For Cold War our little group has settled on 6mm for "big battles" ( eg PSC's NORTHAG) and 15mm for smaller scale games (eg Seven Days to the river Rhine). 

[Cerdic]

I'm very tempted by 12mm/1:144 or whatever you want to call it.

I generally do 28mm and 6mm for every period.

28mm is great for collecting lovely looking figures and having skirmishes and small battles.

6mm is great for big battles with massed ranks of figures. But I haven't done WW2 in 6mm yet, mainly because Infantry are equipped with a variety of weapons and it is not so easy to distinguish what is what in 6mm. It's not like Napoleonics where everyone has a musket!

I reckon 12mm is a good compromise that will allow me to use some of my existing 6mm terrain such as roads and bridges etc.

[NTM]

If I was starting WW2 from scratch I'd definitely go with 10/12mm especially with Victrix getting in on the act. Bought a fair bit of Pendraken a while back and really liked it but when I factored in getting a whole new set of terrain and scenics the numbers just didn't stack up so I decided to stick with 15mm.

[tallyho]

I have no idea why victrix have released plastic ww2 in an odd scale and at prices that are actually more than a 10mm metal tank.

Ludicrous.