Siege of Oathmark (or any other fantasy battle game)

[BZ]

Hello to Everybody,

I read a post on Bloodbeards blog about Battlesworn (https://bloodbeard.blogspot.com/2020/10/review-oathmark-battlesworn.html?showComment=1605804951446#c5072411434274345376), and he mentioned also an idea about having siege rules for Oathmark (as a supplement). That inspired me, made me think about it a lot. I wrote all this down in a (bit chaotic) post on my blog:
https://oathgrave.blogspot.com/2020/11/15-siege-of-oathmark.html
But I would be happy, if that wouldn't stay a monologue, but we could discuss, have ideas about it. So please, share your thoughts here!

[Mark]

Warhammer 5th and 6th editions had siege rules. I remember them being very good but I was very young!

There were damage tables for sections of castle that could result in collapses or breaches, a load of modifiers to combat (attackers needed 6s to hit when climbing ladders, no rank bonuses etc) but I haven't played them in nigh on 20 years!

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Interesting. I need to read the other supplement in my not-Warfare box to comment fully.

[BZ]

Warhammer 5th and 6th editions had siege rules. I remember them being very good but I was very young!

There were damage tables for sections of castle that could result in collapses or breaches, a load of modifiers to combat (attackers needed 6s to hit when climbing ladders, no rank bonuses etc) but I haven't played them in nigh on 20 years!

Thanks for the info! I was in love with WFHB (altough I never get to collect or play anything from it), but I didnt remember that there were siege rules. Can you recall, how a siege was built up? Had the castle parts point values, or were there pre-definied siege settings? I have to get the a look in the rulebook somehow.

[andyskinner]

I am planning a siege (castle assault, really) tomorrow, using Age of Fantasy, from One Page Rules.  The main issue I'm worrying about are fun and balance.

While you often need to have many more attackers than defenders if the defensive situation is good enough, I don't have a good feel for this now.

Here are pictures of my castle, a 1/72 scale modular kit on an insulation foam base:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/L77XZ97DfavrjT1h8

I've made 8 wooden ladders (that I think are going to be frustrating to get figure bases in without falling).

Defenders are elves (GW's Lord of the Rings) with one unit of dwarves and a dwarven ballista.
Attackers are goblins (GW's LotR Moria Goblins, and Uruk Hai scouts as bigger goblins or orcs.  Scarier looking than in practice.)

I'm planning on giving defenders cover for archers shooting at them.  I'm not planning to have the castle walls benefit during melee, because I think the main issue will be how the attackers will only be able to fight a bit at a time.  The game is based on alternating  activations, but we draw counters instead of strict alternation, and I've moved melee resolution to the end, so you can have a big scrum.  But I'm going to have to flex up here.  I think if the guy on top of the ladder kills a defender, he gets to come up, and the next guy can fight.  If the top guy is killed, they still get to move up the ladder, but not onto the wall, so still fighting one at a time.

I don't have an orcy-looking siege engine, so the attackers don't have any.  But trolls will be able to throw goblins onto a wall.  (5-6: succeed, 2-4: falls back safely, 1: dead goblin).  And if they can get the drawbridge down, they can attack the portcullis and trolls can get into the castle.

I have no idea whether any of this is balanced.  I'm running the game for two other players, so if it seems lop-sided, can add something in to one side or the other.

But I also don't even really know if it will be fun.  We want there to be risky attempts and desperate defenses.

Hopefully we'll figure it out.

andy

[Mark]

5th edition had a whole book of scenarios, including capturing a messenger sending for reinforcements, fighting in mines undermining the walls, sallying out and the traditional castle assault. You could play it as a campaign where the earlier scenario had effects in the final assault.

6th edition included siege rules in the back of the big red book (along with skirmish, campaigns etc... the best WHFB rulebook ever!). It was just for a castle assault.

Certainly in 6th you did not pay for the castle, but defenders had half the points of the attacker. Both attackers and defenders could purchase siege equipment - siege towers, battering rams, ladders, rocks, boiling oil - as part of their forces.

[BZ]

5th edition had a whole book of scenarios, including capturing a messenger sending for reinforcements, fighting in mines undermining the walls, sallying out and the traditional castle assault. You could play it as a campaign where the earlier scenario had effects in the final assault.

6th edition included siege rules in the back of the big red book (along with skirmish, campaigns etc... the best WHFB rulebook ever!). It was just for a castle assault.

Certainly in 6th you did not pay for the castle, but defenders had half the points of the attacker. Both attackers and defenders could purchase siege equipment - siege towers, battering rams, ladders, rocks, boiling oil - as part of their forces.

I dont know the WFHB siege rules, but a "defender = attacker / 2" in 6th edition seems a bit oversimplified to me. Was it the same in 5th edition? Did you play any of it?

[BZ]

I am planning a siege (castle assault, really) tomorrow, using Age of Fantasy, from One Page Rules.  The main issue I'm worrying about are fun and balance.

I cant find these on the One Page Rules homepage... Maybe Im blind, but where should they be?

[andyskinner]

Age of Fantasy is here:  https://onepagerules.com/portfolio/age-of-fantasy/

But I am making my own siege adaptations.

andy

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Some thoughts.

It might be worth relating wall heights to "size",  a one inch wall is an obstacle to normal figures. Both sides can fight over them.

A Large (two inch) wall provides an obstacle to large figures, an enormous (three inch) wall to enormous figures.

A normal figure cannot attack across a large wall but can defend from the "inside" of a wall.

Engineers can build one inch high ramp per turn per figure (uninterrupted one turn will build enough to allow fighting over a large wall, two turns for an enormous wall, though they are unlikely to be uninterrupted).

[BZ]

Age of Fantasy is here:  https://onepagerules.com/portfolio/age-of-fantasy/

But I am making my own siege adaptations.

andy

Still cant find anything about siege... Or am I misunderstanding, and there are no siege rules, but You are making your own, that fits to the core rules?

[BZ]

Some thoughts.

It might be worth relating wall heights to "size",  a one inch wall is an obstacle to normal figures. Both sides can fight over them.

A Large (two inch) wall provides an obstacle to large figures, an enormous (three inch) wall to enormous figures.

A normal figure cannot attack across a large wall but can defend from the "inside" of a wall.

Engineers can build one inch high ramp per turn per figure (uninterrupted one turn will build enough to allow fighting over a large wall, two turns for an enormous wall, though they are unlikely to be uninterrupted).

1 inch wall is just a fence, for me it wouldn't be a siege to fight against it. But its a really good point to define which height is an obstacle for which monster size!

[Sir_Theo]

One of the earliest wargames supplements I ever bought was Warhammer Siege which was a massive complex, but inspiring set of rules covering sieges for Warhammer fantasy battles third edition (as well as sieges in 40k for Rogue Trader) the versions in later editions of Fantasy battle are much more playable but if you ever see a copy of the original its well worth picking up!

Siege rules for Kings of War are in the 2019 Clash of Kings supplement. IIRC they boil down to points values for siege equipment for attackers, defensive equipment for defenders , plus rules for moving between elements of the castle, and which types of units can hold which element. I think the walls etc were given stats a lot like the units so they could be attacked.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

1 inch wall is just a fence, for me it wouldn't be a siege to fight against it. But its a really good point to define which height is an obstacle for which monster size!

A one inch wall can be fought over, higher than that human sized figures could not fight over them without ladders or ramps.

[Pattus Magnus]

Another out of print book that is worth looking at if you get a chance is the Siege and Conquest supplement for Warhammer Ancient Battles. It has no provisions for magic or other fantasy aspects, but it is pretty good for the mundane aspects of sieges. It has some scenarios looking at sieges as well, such as sallies by the defenders.