Death of Warhammer Historical

[Captain Blood]

Okay, well I know nothing about this, only ever having bought paint from Games Workshop. But that isn't going to stop me venturing a theory from a position of complete ignorance

At the end of the day, GW's core business is fantasy / sci-fi.
Largely (with the exception of LOTR) fantasy / sci-fi entirely of their own invention (and thus copyright). It's what they do and what they know. A very tightly controlled product set and an even more tightly controlled business model - every step of the process from concept through to sale. Not an unnecessary penny wasted outside the hermetically sealed GW system. You have to admire them really.

So they tried a little 'brand extension' and tested the water with a few sets of historical rules (derived, I believe, from their core fantasy / sci-fi rules products?)
But to really plunge into historicals in a big way would entail a nothing short of a wholesale reinvention of their brand, their product and knowledge base, and actually the entire GW credo. In other words, an acknowledgement that a whole other wargames hobby exists outside 'the only true wargames hobby' (as they see it) - the vaingloriously titled: 'Games Workshop Hobby'.

Acknowledging this fact of course opens up the inevitability of acknowledging the existence of many alternative suppliers for figures, paint, scenery, accessories - etc etc. Whereas in the Orwellian world-view propogated by GW to its disciples, there is no alternative to GW. They've long made a very successful play at being monopolists, and thus the very existence of Warhammer Historical rather flies in the face of this core doctrine.

Perhaps if it had proved a massively financially successful toe-in-the-water, they would have countenanced the complete reinvention of the GW universe that branching out into and embracing historicals at scale would entail. Presumably, it just wasn't lucrative enough to warrant such a massive upheaval and reformation.

I also suspect that where GW's customary pre-pubescent / adolescent fanbase are largely docile, compliant and grateful consumers of GW's product, the typical obstreperous and argumentative middle-aged historical wargamer is precisely the type of opinionated, demanding, and independent-minded customer GW's massively controlling culture doesn't like, can't cope with, and can happily do without...

[greatescapegames]

Great post!

It was more of a hobby or vanity project by Jervis and co. than a serious attempt at brand extension.  A few guys wanting to play with hoplites and hirdmen rather than orcs and skaven for a change.  It may have become a little more serious but you're right, GW's core business is fantasy figures.  If indeed it had become a "massively financially successful toe-in-the-water", maybe we would have ended up with some ridiculous stereotyped Skaven king Xerxesssss's against Elven hoplites, or maybe historical Normans might have been pitted against the slavic hordes of the chaos wastes!

[Galland]

I also suspect that where GW's customary pre-pubescent / adolescent fanbase are largely docile, compliant and grateful consumers of GW's product, the typical obstreperous and argumentative middle-aged historical wargamer is precisely the type of opinionated, demanding, and independent-minded customer GW's massively controlling culture doesn't like, can't cope with, and can happily do without...

This sir, is what we call skitsnack in Svedala, and equalls to your references of what is commonly known as bullshit.
I dont play any of their games, not even the Historicals, however, I do enjoy their paints, models, miniatures and books with pretty pictures, and, I allways feel very much so welcome in their shops.

[Kalle]

This sir, is what we call skitsnack in Svedala, and equalls to your references of what is commonly known as bullshit.
I dont play any of their games, not even the Historicals, however, I do enjoy their paints, models, miniatures and books with pretty pictures, and, I allways feel very much so welcome in their shops.

What he said...

Kalle

[Kalle]

Easily the best thing GW produced.

A western game where you equip your hero with two tomahawks and a chineese sword and win against guys with sixshooters?

Please discuss.

Regards
/Kalle

[Galland]

A western game where you equip your hero with two tomahawks and a chineese sword and win against guys with sixshooters?

Please discuss.

Regards
/Kalle

Haha!

[Captain Blood]

I didn't suggest GW shop staff have a problem with obstreperous and argumentative middle-aged historical wargamers. Most of us are ever so civil in the flesh.
It's in the frothing world of wargames chatter online where norms of polite behaviour are forgotten...

My point is that GW corporately has long fostered a culture of acceptance and obedience amongst its core adolescent customer base. So encountering a very different demographic - the sort of knowledgeable, opinonated, quarrelsome, questioning that pervades so many wargames fora - and which I'm sure they had experience of throughout the WH Historical experiment, must have been a culture shock. Probably more trouble than it was worth.

Like I said, it's just a theory. Call it skitsnack if you like though

[Galland]

I didn't suggest GW shop staff have a problem with obstreperous and argumentative middle-aged historical wargamers. Most of us are ever so civil in the flesh.
It's in the frothing world of wargames chatter online where norms of polite behaviour are forgotten...

My point is that GW corporately has long fostered a culture of acceptance and obedience amongst its core adolescent customer base. So encountering a very different demographic - the sort of knowledgeable, opinonated, quarrelsome, questioning that pervades so many wargames fora - and which I'm sure they had experience of throughout the WH Historical experiment, must have been a culture shock. Probably more trouble than it was worth.

Like I said, it's just a theory. Call it skitsnack if you like though

I just thought that I, albeit with some sadness, realised that I rather fit in to the description that you gave of the middle aged, and perhaps at times, rather obnoxious wargamer, and hence had to comment.
I must confess to one sin though, I lied, I do play one of their games. I very much so do enjoy Mordheim every now and then.

[Prof.Witchheimer]

WH Historical experiment,

As far as I know, WH Historical wasn't really an experiment, testing waters or similar. Actually some of then GW peoples (Rick Pristley, Nigel Stillman, Perry Brothers) wanted a historical game to play with. They merely  converted the WHFB rules into WAB. WH Historical actually was an hobby project with Rick Pristley supporting this.  

[styx]

I just thought that I, albeit with some sadness, realised that I rather fit in to the description that you gave of the middle aged, and perhaps at times, rather obnoxious wargamer, and hence had to comment.
I must confess to one sin though, I lied, I do play one of their games. I very much so do enjoy Mordheim every now and then.

When I worked for GW, the staff was taught to focus on recruiting new players (any age) (but the younger ages was the best to bring on board for the long term consumer). They have a nickname for the old farts that go in and complain and buy very little called Greybeards. Sure the GW staff will be nice, talk to you and sell you anything you want. They are still looking to recruit the new player, have them to come into the store and play games not veteran players, they don't want to encourage them to hang at the store. The complaints

[Galland]

When I worked for GW, the staff was taught to focus on recruiting new players (any age) (but the younger ages was the best to bring on board for the long term consumer). They have a nickname for the old farts that go in and complain and buy very little called Greybeards. Sure the GW staff will be nice, talk to you and sell you anything you want. They are still looking to recruit the new player, have them to come into the store and play games not veteran players, they don't want to encourage them to hang at the store. The complaints

I have no worries about being called a Greybeard, I will take that as a compliment. However, I dont fear getting treated with any difference from any other customer either, especially since I do hang out with a few of the staff privately.

[Elbows]

A western game where you equip your hero with two tomahawks and a chineese sword and win against guys with sixshooters?

Please discuss.

Regards
/Kalle

Not if:

A) You don't play with cheesy players.

B) You adapt some house rules.

[psyberwyche]

A western game where you equip your hero with two tomahawks and a chineese sword and win against guys with sixshooters?

Please discuss.

Bear in mind that you can't do things like that when you pick your gang, line up and fight. You actually have to go out of your way, scour through all the supplements, and deliberately *choose* to purchase an unlikely combo. As it's a WYSIWYG game, you then have to convert a model to represent it.

People who go to those lengths to ruin other people's enjoyment in the furtherance of their own winning streak will break ANY game...

If, however, you want the freedom to be able to do wacky stuff, because your group is more 'Jonah Hex' than 'True Grit', then you'll probably enjoy that aspect all the more!

[Kalle]

Still, one tomahawk wins over one sixshooter.... its not cheese, its a fundamental flaw in the game.

K

[styx]

Still, one tomahawk wins over one sixshooter.... its not cheese, its a fundamental flaw in the game.

K

A sixgun is 10", STR 3 and Fanning
A tomahawk is Sx2" (usually 6"), STR as user (3 usually), can use on the move and a hand weapon

Aside from the being able to throw the tomahawk in the movement phase the sixgun beats it by 4" range, mass of firepower (fanning). Unless someone is not on their A game, in theory a tomahawk should never get near them. Plus once you throw the Tomahawk it's gone, you don't have a dozen of them unless you buy more than one. Sixshooter never has ammo issues other than a critical forcing you to reload.

What you are talking about is a best case scenario....I did have a friend that figured out a way to REALLY break indians and we plan to try out the theory one day. I feel it comes down to the scenery and how each player plays....if I had enough rifles and a good field of fire (and the right scenario) I would butcher them in theory as they can run away after 1/3 of their posse is gone.