[Kickstarter] Shieldwolf:War is coming (Battle Orc Wyvern review page #11!)

[pocoloco]

Very nice sculpt 

Part of me is happy that you guys weren't around when I was more into fantasy gaming and on the other hand, part of me is sad.

 

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

Very nice sculpt 

Part of me is happy that you guys weren't around when I was more into fantasy gaming and on the other hand, part of me is sad.

 

Thank you, we like it a lot and we are very happy this too came VERY faithful to the concept artwork.
Fantasy gaming (especially wargaming, not skirmish) is going through a strange phase atm, for a variety of reasons we can discuss in another thread, most of which I guess you already know.
People need something refreshing, not same-o-same-o, it is not only our miniatures that have a different vibe (agreed, some people will like them, some will not, and some -inevitably- will hate them), it is also our game which we have not advertised enough (main reason is because it's still not fully finished) and on which we have spent literally hundreds and hundreds of hours testing. 
An army game -and not a skirmish game- is way more complicated, a simple new rule of a single army is enough to unbalance the entire game!  It is in our hearts that we believe something new -and better- can come in and bring in more people -either veterans brought back or completely newcomers- to this fantastic hobby we so much enjoy. But to do that we need to be able to support it. Even before the KS we had spend a very considerable capital, but we need to spend an even larger one. And we need to do it faster.

We love this hobby, we want to do more. That's the only truth. 

[Nord]

There's certainly a gap in the market for an army sized game. I can think of only two other major fantasy battle games*, one of which is about to be upgraded/nuked into oblivion (delete as applicable) and the other is a stripped down, bland version of the first. If you can produce a half decent game you may well be on to a winner.

Good luck to you sirs, I am looking forward to seeing the campaign.

*other fantasy games may be available, good luck finding them

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

There's certainly a gap in the market for an army sized game. I can think of only two other major fantasy battle games*, one of which is about to be upgraded/nuked into oblivion (delete as applicable) and the other is a stripped down, bland version of the first. If you can produce a half decent game you may well be on to a winner.

Good luck to you sirs, I am looking forward to seeing the campaign.

*other fantasy games may be available, good luck finding them

Thank you Nord, I'm catching the opportunity you're giving to me with your comment to pin an interview they took from us from the greatest Greek hobby site (and since most people in this forum don't speak Greek I imagine,  ) we've translated it in English and posted it in other forums as well.  
I'm sure you'll be interested mostly in Questions 5 and 6.
(I'm also sure not everyone will like it, but again, we can't please everybody)  

For whomever is interested, here's the original http://www.wargamer.gr/index.php/community/interviews/item/4425-shieldwolf-miniatures

This is our first interview from the people behind the only Greek company manufacturing miniatures in 28mm scale. While waiting for their first campaign on Kickstarter which is due on February 10th, we asked 11 questions to this company, concerning their upcoming rule-set, their miniatures and naturally their campaign!

1st Question: Tell us 2 words describing Shieldwolf Miniatures, how was it created and how come you decided something like this in a country that has nothing similar to what you're doing?
Shieldwolf Miniatures was an idea created many years ago and something that Angelos liked a lot, since we have all been involved for many years in fantasy worlds and it fascinates us. The decision to make this into a reality was however taken on February 2012. The fact nothing else like this exists in Greece was additional motive for us to create it!

2nd Question: How was the reaction of the hobbyists?
Initially we expected better, we were set up for mass production of large scale, but we soon realized that competition was tougher than initially anticipated. Truth is that worked in our favor because although it forced us to alter our initial plans, it made us even more competitive than we initially were aiming for. The number of people who are now following us today proves this.

3rd Question: What did you change?
Well, let's start with what we kept. Our manufacturing methods rest the same, they were already at a great level. Same goes for customer service, we kept doing exactly what we started from day 1. What we changed was our sculptors, our standards and the interaction with the people who share our passion, we are now discussing openly with people and we are not afraid to show off our accomplishments in such a short period of time. Also, we are prioritizing innovation, something that makes us different from everyone else, and which was recognized to us from the release of our Mountain Orcs.

4th Question: What do you believe makes you different from other miniature manufacturers?
First of all we are not only manufacturers of miniatures, we are also producers of a game. Concerning the miniatures we replied earlier, we see things differently. For the game I'm afraid there's not much to tell because although it has been developed a lot, there's still work to be done. There aren't many fantasy army games in general, the reason is simple, it's very hard to support them. We however, in contrary with skirmish games, are looking into doing something harder and more elaborate.

5th Question: What difference does your game have from e.g. Warhammer or Kings of War?
Our game allows 2 different ways to play it, one very fast and one very hardcore, something that neither of the above offer. Compared to Warhammer it's much faster and slightly less complicated. We have different rules concerning magic and character roles and placing, while we don't include any named characters. Compared to Kings of War we include large monsters (centerpieces) which they don't have and probably more tactical and fast. Whether it's more fun to play or not will be judged from the people.

6th Question: Do you want to tell us some more specifics about your game?
The game people know today when playing an army wargame, like the ones mentioned above, is that 2 players set up their armies and then take turns playing according to certain restrictions. Before even starting a game of War is Coming, there will be a number of events that effects whatever advantages or disadvantages a players had before starting. Nothing chaotic but brings the feeling that this is war and you must cope with the unexpected. Any capable General going into battle should be able to handle that.
Another example of how a number of soldiers/warriors of each army gives advantages and disadvantages to each army and which should reflect on the game or if you like, on the field of battle. An army with few numbers (elit) compared to an army of many (horde) could and should move more effectively. Therefore, while a General/player has finished deploying his more disciplined army, instead of waiting for the masses of troops the enemy/opponent brings with him, could start playing immediately (by shooting, moving etc)! War is coming and it's not going to wait.

7th Question: Let's change a bit the subject and get back to the miniatures. What armies are you preparing and when are we going to see for example the Araves?
The Araves like many others have temporarily frozen in favor of the Kickstarter. We have already said that we have many plans for armies no one has ever created before in this scale and will be favored when possible. Dwarfs for example, which are included in our plans, have saturated choices at the moment and even if we release rules for them, you aren't going to be seeing models any time soon. Someone could use models from Mantic or Games Workshop which are the only ones at the moment that have a complete army for dwarfs. For the rest of our troops we are definitely liking very much Daemons, Goblins and Elves. For the Daemons we have a very powerful and special set of rules and vision in store for them, Goblins are a Mercenary army (like the Talliareum Ogres) while we have said before that Elves are not "good" and "bad", for us Elves are only "good", they are divided in 3 factions, the Elves of the Order who compose the main part of the army, the Oak Elves who supply skirmish units and the Shadow Elves who do all the "dirty" work (harassment, warmachine hunters κλπ). Slowly and with determination we will proceed in these armies as well, one thing at a time.

8th Question: I see. OK, let's talk about the Kickstarter. Why Kickstarter and not Indiegogo?
We chose Kickstarter because of the plans and passion we have for something really big, Indiegogo (as it is till today at least) is for smaller scale projects and with not as many people. It's definitely very important that the campaign goes well and we hope in the support of the Community. We have worked on this for 9 long months, while freezing everything else that was ready to go into production, something that financially has obvisouly not helped us and we hope our decision proves correct, not by chance we had named this “Pillars of destiny”. We have done everything we could do, we have superb sculptors, painters, concept artists, the materials we use are world's best. Every detail has been analyzed and discussed multiple times, even our pitch video which we consider every serious campaign wanting to do something great should reflect the amount of work, passion and responsability of the creators.
If this works out well, besides Games Workshop Shieldwolf will be the only other company worldwide producing this quality of fantasy miniatures in 28mm heroic/bulky scale, while we also accelarate the completion of the first edition of our game.

9th Question: What goodies have you prepared and what's the 5th army you still have not revealed?
The 5th army will be revealed during the Kickstarter in order to provide further momentum in our campaign. We have sculpted and painted models from this army too, along with the other 4 naturally. What we have prepared I can assure you are top quality not only in sculpts but also concept, while many you have never seen from any other manufacturer. And some of these are... big. Really big!

10th Question: What's your funding goal?
We have spent a very considerable amount of money preparing this Kickstarter, and that is only normal if you want to convince on what you are doing. In theory this campaign even with our cofunding should have had a funding goal of at least 62,000$. Even so, it was decided that we are going to start from an embarassingly low funding goal, which will not even cover the money spent on concept artwork alone! There is the danger of course that this does not pick up fast and that the stretch goals don't get unlocked the one after the other like we have planned, something that would be very bad not only for all the work we have put into this but for the campaign itself. We hope something like this does not happen and we'll unlock -if not all- at least most of the things we have planned for.

11th Question. Hopefully all will work out well. One last question before we finish, because it will certainly interest people. Will there be any Kickstarter exclusives or early birds?
Kickstarter exclusives will not be available. The reason is when we create something we want it to be great and share it with people, even those that at the time couldn't afford it. During our campaign we already have serious discounts to reward those who believe in us and helped us out. Now, in the great scenario that we have unlocked all our stretch goals, which we have said before will be counted and we'll not add anything else on top once everything has been met, then we'll look to do something extra with that money for the backers, but let's not rush.
For the early birds the answer is also "no", except if you mean a limited number of pledges, then in that case "yes" (although we have not baptized them early birds), we need to make sure that after the campaign we meet pledges easier.

[Uthred of Bebbanburg]

I've quoted something we wrote over at da-warpath forum
In the heat of battle you do not cover yourself in furs, the adrenaline is such that you will simply take the enemy on with wearing as little burden as possible, the cold is not your concern at the point, instead your foe's axe or sword are!
Wear armor, well, it's not going to do much good to you when the much heavier and stronger male opponent strikes you. We are not the first to have "invented" this clothing, we are not sexist nor miso-gynists, that's why we will have both versions ready for their plastic regiment. We have designed some plated armor parts on the female Lords with a bit of chaimail too, but we find the "regular" Shieldmaidens would much prefer maintaining their agility over some temporary protection. That's why they have their shields anyway, this is fantasy after all! :-)

Alas, that isn't how armour works. Up till about 25 kilos, armour restricts you very little, and decent armour is something I would always choose over a slight boost in agility. Calling armor "temporary protection" is rubbish, to be frank, I have had my maille for years and it is still in mostly one piece. I understand doing the whole bikini clad shield maiden thing, because we all know it will sell, but please don't insult our intelligence by making up an excuse that makes no sense...

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

Alas, that isn't how armour works. Up till about 25 kilos, armour restricts you very little, and decent armour is something I would always choose over a slight boost in agility. Calling armor "temporary protection" is rubbish, to be frank, I have had my maille for years and it is still in mostly one piece. I understand doing the whole bikini clad shield maiden thing, because we all know it will sell, but please don't insult our intelligence by making up an excuse that makes no sense...

Ah good, more than a month ago and now we get the first negative reaction to something no-one else reacted to. 
Firstly, we have no intention to insult anyone. If you think we insulted you, that was not our intention. If you think what we prepared is not for you, simply do not support us. It's a game after all, only a game.

Secondly, if you write your comment with a different approach, we might get somewhere where we can agree and you can get your point across.

Thirdly, let's not get stuck in 2 words (and I'm not playing the "language barrier" card, there's absolutely no need for that!), if you make a woman wear heavy armor and make her face a man wearing the same, it will create a disadvantage and make her a slow and easy adversary. And wearing 25kg (as you say) or wearing 2kg does not count as "slight" boost, it's instead a huge boost and what the Shieldmaiden would count on. 
Anyway, back to our example, both Barbarian and Shieldmaiden are wearing heavy armor, well, it will probably allow the female to parry the first couple of blows (here's where the term "temporary protection" that upset you comes in). Then the female will inevitably fall and await the final blow. That's not what we want them to be.

Also, we haven't used real armor to weigh and tell you it's 25kg like you have (and I'll take your word for it that it is indeed twenty-five), I do remember however once holding a 2-handed long sword and it was VERY heavy to handle (and I'm no midget!), so I can immagine what HEAVY armor would be like on a female, even if it has to do with a Northern Alliance Shieldmaiden that is a tough nut to crack 

To wrap things up, we have gone into the trouble to design 2 different options, we have said that before and I repeat, we do have some with little clothing and we do have some with armor (not heavy armor). People will be pledging, and when we -hopefully- get to that point of unlocking them, we will almost definitely be asking you what the preference is!  It's your hard-earned money you will be pledging, you do have a right to say your own.   

Hope I made more sense now and I expressed the point made above better.   

[Tactalvanic]

Ah good, more than a month ago and now we get the first negative reaction to something no-one else reacted to. 
Firstly, we have no intention to insult anyone. If you think we insulted you, that was not our intention. If you think what we prepared is not for you, simply do not support us. It's a game after all, only a game.

Secondly, if you write your comment with a different approach, we might get somewhere where we can agree and you can get your point across.

Thirdly, let's not get stuck in 2 words (and I'm not playing the "language barrier" card, there's absolutely no need for that!), if you make a woman wear heavy armor and make her face a man wearing the same, it will create a disadvantage and make her a slow and easy adversary. And wearing 25kg (as you say) or wearing 2kg does not count as "slight" boost, it's instead a huge boost and what the Shieldmaiden would count on. 
Anyway, back to our example, both Barbarian and Shieldmaiden are wearing heavy armor, well, it will probably allow the female to parry the first couple of blows (here's where the term "temporary protection" that upset you comes in). Then the female will inevitably fall and await the final blow. That's not what we want them to be.

Also, we haven't used real armor to weigh and tell you it's 25kg like you have (and I'll take your word for it that it is indeed twenty-five), I do remember however once holding a 2-handed long sword and it was VERY heavy to handle (and I'm no midget!), so I can immagine what HEAVY armor would be like on a female, even if it has to do with a Northern Alliance Shieldmaiden that is a tough nut to crack 

To wrap things up, we have gone into the trouble to design 2 different options, we have said that before and I repeat, we do have some with little clothing and we do have some with armor (not heavy armor). People will be pledging, and when we -hopefully- get to that point of unlocking them, we will almost definitely be asking you what the preference is!  It's your hard-earned money you will be pledging, you do have a right to say your own.   

Hope I made more sense now and I expressed the point made above better.   

ouch.

I don't think but maybe Uthred did not read the comment a month ago, but more recently?

Because this is fantasy - therefore girls in 2kilos or less of metal/fur/cloth bikini in the freezing cold is fine or not, in fantasy - so no one really bothered with the comment  - I think you may find they did notice

But - as it stands - nothing really new there its been done plenty in the past with bikini armor

- But sensibly armored - there are not so many - which if you are wanting to do something different is a valid thing to take note of.

That then gives some interesting options to others regards shield-maidens and the like.

Especially those that don't see anything different yet in what you are doing - nice stuff for sure, but the argument continues whether it is different enough 

Still, you are mis-leading/mis-understanding the armor point. Which is a little unfair.

A weapon is not armor. it's weight is born by one or two hands/arms.

25kilos of armor -  or more - is distributed weight. its not born on a single point of the human frame in the same way a weapon is.

Also that includes layers of padding to absorb blows - the chain mail is primarily meant to stop weapons cutting/penetrating - the underlying padding absorbs the impact to prevent crushing/bruising etc, so a warrior can keep fighting for longer.

and in reality 25kilos of armor is light armor

Uthred has a point related to realism, thats all - I am sorry, but see nothing wrong in his wording in doing so 

In the end as you say, there are two options, and the backers/buyers will decide in the end whether they want with or without.  boobies

We have not even touched on plate armor, which is primarily meant to redirect/deflect blows away rather than absorb impact. Still - this is fantasy land 

There are certainly some women in re-enactment circles that would not be impressed with the idea they could not beat men when fully armed and armored in a similar fashion. 

They are and would be used to using the equipment - and that makes a huge difference compared to picking up a big sword and saying "wow - heavy" for the first time. 

Regardless, please keep the nice sculpts and eye candy coming, and thanks for waiting until February for your kickstarter, so I have time to save up. 

[Timbor]

Not being an expert on actual combat in armour, I find Shieldwolf Mini's explanation is fine enough for me.  If we are talking in real-life terms, an all-woman army is unlikely anyway considering the simple biological differences between men and women (mass being the most obvious, but not the only thing).

In the real world, there hasn't really been any 'women-only' armies save for pseudo-mythological amazons in pretty much all of recorded history?  Even historical amazons were likely not 'women-only' societies, but women from Scythian peoples who fought alongside men from horseback - likely more out of necessity than anything else. So, the main historical inspiration is likely someone who wore little to no armour, and fought from horseback with a bow as a primary weapon.

Here we have a purely fantasy army that would be unlikely to be successful or feasible in a real world, heavy armour or not.  I am glad that Shieldwolf is giving the option to have some armour, and not make them all bearskin-bikinis.  Full-plate clad female warriors going toe-to-toe in ranked close combat with men twice their size is just as unlikely as a skirmishing, lightly armoured woman-warrior, IMO.

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

My wording may be wrong, don't know, I'm not trying to sound like "I know better", but my point is it's not that unreasonable that women will prefer agility over heavy armor.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it's not that we acted like everyone else is stupid/dumb/moronic and we "got away" with a silly explanation, to us it's not silly. 
As for innovation, I underline (again) that this is not us imagining fantasy female warriors dressed like thta, but we should be given the credit of trying to realize an entire army at this scale, something no-one else (to our knowledge) has ever done before.
Hope this resolves the issue

As for the kind words, thank you, we are saving the best for the Kickstarter (and even hiding some while it is live), we will send more your way however in the next days... 

[Nord]

Oh blimey, not the armour thing again. 

Everybody accepts ogres walking round in uniforms, orcs, daemons, etc. but a woman in bikini. NOOOOOOO. It's unrealistic!!!!!!!!! Come on, get a grip, it's a fantasy game. If you can accept a mythological ogre walking round with a cannon under his arm, surely you can accept a woman, tits out or nicely ensconsed in armour. It's not a historical game, anything goes.

[The Red Graf]

Gentlemen, let’s stay polite and friendly. The last thing we need is an aggressive attitude against an upcoming range of figures. Let’s wait till we can see the greens and then let’s talk about but again -> polite and friendly. Thanks.

 I really don't get all the vitriol directed at this project. I would think with the rumors of changes at GW people would be lining up to praise a new project like this. If you don't like the miniatures, the concepts, are the amount of armor worn by one army or another, why not just move on? I am interested and frankly I'm getting a bit tired of some of the comments.

As Nord pointed out, this is Fantasy. Dwarves, Dragons, unicorns. If you can accept centaurs without getting bogged down with questions about where exactly there tackle is located I think you can deal with fur bikinis.  Oh, and for the record, Spartans fought naked so it isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

[hjorhrafn]

I'm looking forward to seeing what is offered in this Kickstarter.  I'm pretty impressed by the mounted priest.  I'm especially interested in seeing the northern women.  I'll reserve judgement on whether I'm going to spend money on them until I see the versions available. 

[Tactalvanic]

Apologies all, especially Shieldwolf Miniatures if my recent comment on armor seemed over the top, it was not meant to be or to generate that much heat.

As I mentioned at its end and much earlier in the discussion I am very interested in this project.

I don't directly have issues with any of it and do look forward to a positive outcome from it.

I see the hard work and effort going into it, after all they are showing real sculpts and solid ideas ahead of launching the kickstarter, with the addition of it hopefully being truly Euro friendly (low postage cost please  ) it does show some great promise.

Regardless, please keep the eye candy and info coming, and hope good things come from this, and that I can afford the postage if/when the time comes.

T

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

Your apologies are not necessary Tactalvanic, I very much comprehended what you meant to say and you did with a very respectful way (you also have a great point about the weapon example I shot out which indeed isn't the same thing as wearing a 25kg armor like the other forum member mentioned).
It is us who must apologize if someone got offended by our (maybe a bit harsh) reaction, but try to understand we not only have frozen a bunch of stuff -sculpted and ready for production- in favor of this project (and which we have shown pics of so no-one would think we are making this up!), we have spend 9 long months trying to get everything ready and -if succesfull- we have to spend even more if we want to live up to our reputation!  We do not want to trim on an issue that imho shouldn't even exist, and we certainly don't believe anyone of you is dumb! 

We have already spend upfront a very respectful sum of funds, time, effort, etc, which is a lot more than others have by presenting mere artwork or renders (and maybe not even those) and we are willing to co-fund this in order to see it come to life! Sculpting the 3-ups for our first kit in order to commence tooling asap once the project has been completed has already costed several thousands of pounds and should this project fail, no-one is going to give these back to us, but we believe in this and are willing to put our hands over the flames trying to reach for our dream. It amazes us how some projects nowadays from the so-called "Kickstarter companies" do much less than that but receive way less heat than we have. 

We receive in daily basis (and that's the truth) various questions/suggestions etc in our info contact form. You will be surprised at what questions people are asking us, we are among the few who have worked with HIPS before and unlike beginners we know the timelines and costs. Our first sprue wasn't made of 2 bodies, 3 weapon options and 4 heads! We tried putting a very respectable amount of stuff and at a -what we consider- very reasonable price. We mean to keep providing top-quality product and also make available even more, but we don't want to wait 20 years for that! 

We believe and love what we are doing, we would very much like to have people asking questions like "what monstrous cavalry are the Shieldmaidens or Talliareum Ogres going to have?", "what weaponry will be available on their plastic sprues?" or maybe "what monsters will each faction receive?" or even "how much money do you think would an army cost?", then have people answering and guessing, we'll throw in a bit of information too if possible. 
 That's (in our humble opinion) what would help promote both the campaign and thread/conversation in general, not why the Shieldmaidens wear so little clothing or if our Ogres are original enough or not...

Thanks for reading,
We believe you'll like what we've created and would be honored if you decide to support us.

[Timbor]

Well, Shieldwolf, they do say that any publicity is good publicity, so even if folks are complaining about the lack of armour on the women, at least they are talking about the product! 

I admire the effort you guys are putting into this project, and I think it is the proper way to go about creating a kickstarter campaign.

As for asking specific questions about what will be included for each army, I would say I haven't asked too many questions like that because we haven't had enough information revealed yet.  I am sure such discussion will follow as we approach the KS release and get more info about what will be on offer.