Women in wargames

[Arlequín]

I was going for almost agreeing, rather than disagreeing, but yes... what you said this time too.  

I'll add to Fram's list;

Crooked Dice, Hinterland, Pulp Miniatures, Statuesque Miniatures... of course if you just mean 'Fantasy' figures, rather than miniatures in general, then all bets are off.  

[FramFramson]

It seems funny to me to have this attitude about being forced to do things or use certain figures, because wargaming is more recent for me; I didn't grow up with it at all.

See, I spent 20 years mostly playing CCGs and video games. If you want something to happen, you generally have to hope a manufacturer (or adept modder) makes it for you and if you don't like that, you're out of luck. If I want to play some video game and I like the mechanics but disapprove of the character models... well that's tough! I'm probably stuck with those character models. If I don't like the art on a Magic card, too bad! All I can do is hope that maybe someday it get reprinted with different art - I'm largely at the company's mercy.

To me wargaming is massive freedom in comparison. If I want to play a particular era or or army or nation or whatever, I can choose anything I like. I can pick the ruleset to use or even modify or create my own rules. If I don't like the models or figures I can substitute anything I like. Sure, if I want to play some obscure historical war and I'm obsessed with strict accuracy, I might find it hard to find the right mounted auxiliaries with the specific type of cocked hat used in that conflict, but that is down to incredibly specific details - and you can make anything if you do a bit of converting anyway.

That's what I love about wargaming - this is my hobby, not some manufacturer's, and I make of it what I want, how I want.

[Hupp n at em]

I've always found the chainmail-bikini figures and the like to be incredibly cringe-worthy and not worth my time of day.   If other people like it, that's great, but I have no interest in it.  I would say that I think that the imbalance of female representations in the hobby is trending in the right direction, but I think the unfortunate thing is that it's just going to take a while.  I can't really add anything new that hasn't already been said beyond that, I guess.

[westwaller]

I'm reluctant to wade into this topic to be honest, but echoing comments that have already been made, personally what I find most offensive about the ladies of the west sculpts is they are very boring and It is almost as if someone said- they look boring what about if we show some boobs and then they will be ok...

I agree there are a lot of these lazy stereotypical depictions of women by Fantasy & Sci-Fi sculptors and frankly things could be a lot better. However this is a genre that largely is built on stereotypes. Sword & Sorcery fantasy is all about archetypal images so by this nature, most if not all the miniatures produced will be stereotypes. We want to be identify the character at a glance, so ripped muscles big weapons etc say 'warrior'. In the same way I guess that sometimes, certain visual motifs can be used to say Bad, Angry, Sexy.

Personally I find most of the 'sexy lady' miniatures produced, almost the complete opposite. Many are just dull and characterless. As an Artist I do think we must be careful about dismissing images of the naked or partially clothed body as 'offensive'. Indeed there seems to me to be a disturbing trend towards shying away from perceived 'sexual' content whilst allowing all sorts explicitly violent images to become the norm.

I think that there should be room for sculptors to produce 'edgy' or risqué miniatures for adult consumption and I have to say there are some good ones out, some of the Hasslefree ones come to mind and I applaud the depiction of the 'larger lady' in their 'Libby' miniatures as this is something that is also lacking and more female miniatures of different or even realistic body size should be produced. I also agree that some companies miniatures posted on this forum have been at best, in poor taste, at worst shockingly misogynistic.

So I don't agree with the idea that there shouldn't be any partially clothed or nude female miniatures but I do agree with the Op that it is becoming more the norm for women to be depicted this way, often in place of a decent characterful sculpt.

[answer_is_42]

but there are plenty manufacturers on that list with perfectly equitably-treated minis (Red Box or our own LAF minis, for instance) and plenty more who offer both sexy and sensible minis (Reaper, or Studio McVey, or Hasslefree, for instance). And that's just fantasy.

LAF miniatures and Red Box are of course exceptions to the rule. I've had a wander through the three latter companies I and would maintain my statement stands. Hell, first thing I got when I went to the Reaper page was a naked female figure.

Nobody is forcing anyone to run these in a game. Nobody.

If I had a pound for every time I heard this one. Be it advertising, films, magazines... "well they don't have to buy it", said with a smirk. As has already been said, what if the majority of the black figures were crude caricatures? Would that be ok? I'm well aware that people who do not like the figures will not buy them.  
To make my point for the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to stop production of this stuff, just trying to work out why there is so much of it (a matter we're simply going to have to disagree on), and why it seems to be such a widely accepted norm.

(that list is not curated for prudishness!)

Whelp, that says it all really, doesn't it? I'm simply a prude. "Political correctness gone mad" I'll wager.

Personally I find most of the 'sexy lady' miniatures produced, almost the complete opposite. Many are just dull and characterless. As an Artist I do think we must be careful about dismissing images of the naked or partially clothed body as 'offensive'. Indeed there seems to me to be a disturbing trend towards shying away from perceived 'sexual' content whilst allowing all sorts explicitly violent images to become the norm.

I agree with your post entirely; there should be no limits on what people can and can't produce. If deployed well, sexual imagery can really invigorate a range.

Violence is an interesting one in wargames, I think. In fact (and it's rather off topic) I might suggest that wargames are almost too 'clean'. Even when we use casualty figures they are rarely mangled corpses. We've got too many breasts and not enough gore?

[harleyface]

The last point i absolutly dont understand.
more gore....should it be a joke...?

[Centaur_Seducer]

The last point i absolutly dont understand.
more gore....should it be a joke...?

Sarcasm

[harleyface]

was hoping so...maybe its more obvious for an bative english speaker.
but for a moment i wasnt rell sure...

[answer_is_42]

Sarcasm

Not entirely! Haha, it's a conversation for another day, but how many casualty figures have you seen with arms or legs missing?

[Arlequín]

I'd argue that the majority of black figures are crude caricatures... but that is a conversation that would certainly get this thread locked. 

[Vermis]

In response to 'it's harmless, no women have problems with it', I'll stick this here.

http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/74689891216/arvid-submitted-i-was-wondering-if-someone
http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/81038569960/eschergirls-filbypott-a-succubus-wearing

That blog had more to do with female depictions in comics and digital games, but in their themes I don't think they're a million miles away from many fantasy and sci-fi settings in wargames and other mini games. Take a browse through it. See how many people have problems with it. Most of them have two X chromosomes. When you're done, take a look through these too. Keep in mind how much of the content resonates with this hobby. Do you think many of the participants would give an automatic thumbs-up to the 'perfectly inoffensive sexy chicks' already posted in this thread?

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/
http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/category/she-has-no-head/

Rationalising it, even with your own experiences, as a bit of fun that women love, can be close-minded and unhelpful to say the least. Granted, wargaming might be more of a boy's toys pursuit, and there are women who also engage in it, but I wonder how many try to avoid those seedier aspects, and how more are discouraged because it seems too much like a *cough* 'gentleman's club'. And granted, I haven't noticed the kind of horrific responses in the wargaming world that some female comics creators and critics have received, upon their comments that the depiction of women has to change; although those former set me right against objectification in any nerd-media. Our vicious arguments tend to be about Games Workshop and how ancient weapons were used, but I wonder about the reaction of some fanboys and old boys if our tiny niche gained more attention and more women started to ask where the non-BDSM-elf and -nun armies were. Heck, got creeped out enough just by the 'positive' welcome given to the new 'editors' over on that other site...

Also, I'm pretty shocked by the assertion some of you are making that 'women should be sexy and seductive, and men tough and masterful'. I mean, that should speak for itself, right? You know it's playing up to old, harmful stereotypes, right? You realise there are women who would not appreciate the support of these, frankly, nakedly oppressive gender roles? (I'd also say that the young lady dressed up as Red Sonja is not subverting that too much. I'd guess she's prepared to fight some hordes off, but sweaty nerds, not ravening stygians. She's no more empowered than sunbathers at the beach.)
Taking that, and that fallacious example of semi-naked barbarians (and going back to the Hawkeye Initiative a bit): there's a difference between sexual fantasies and power fantasies, or in other words the old chestnut - 'wanting to be and wanting to be with'. I'd hazard most male gamers are eyeing up the ersatz Conans with a little vicariousness and even envy, not arousal. (I also doubt most female gamers are having their cake and eating it by casting lustful glances at these 28mm metal people too) The viewpoints of some male gamers towards miniatures of semi-clad females, though... that's already spoken for itself, as mentioned. "I like the little women I own to be sexy, provocative, and wearing few clothes!" That's all that's wanted; all they can really represent. All they're good for representing, even.

That's the problem, really: that people think there's no problem.

[westwaller]

I'd agree that some figures are guilty of being racial stereotypes, yes. On the issue of violence, I was mainly referring to that depicted outside the hobby through everyday media rather than specifically in Wargaming. I'd argue that we are representing events rather than accurately depicting them. So casualty figures are just that.

A cliche I know, but the majority of us know that real warfare is an awful thing that we should seek to avoid at all costs (a bit simplistically put I know, but there you are)

I would also say that a certain miniature company does have a 'questionable' attitude towards the more controversial miniatures in their ranges. This has made me look at other manufacturers ranges first, before looking at said company. If I can get it elsewhere, I will. This is, however not the place for those political discussions and I would not want to derail this thread with them either.

[harleyface]

one personal example
my wife works here in munich at bmw
shes the chef of 80 men
she earns 3 times as much as i do.
she always says one of the most important things is that men and women schould be equal but never forget that they are different
shes using make up and makes her nails because she likes to be a women....

[The Red Graf]

Someone accused me of implying that if you didn't agree with me you weren't a man. It was not my intention to imply that, and I'm sorry that you drew that conclusion. I live in the American Midwest, vote Democratic, despise professional and college sports, and believe in sensible gun control laws, I am neither the arbiter nor the gate keeper for ideal manhood. Alas, I am not masterful either though I would like to be.

Some one also said that I appeared to have a lot of anger about this issue and that is true. Because at the end of the day most people who don't like the kind of miniatures I do don't really want parity, they want everyone to think and act exactly as they believe. Saying a miniature is not your style is never enough when you can say that it disgusts you. By implication anyone that likes a "disgusting" miniature is a disgusting person. What is the point of having this discussion then, there is no middle ground with you people.

[Cherno]

Excuse the meta question, but was this thread there all the time after the forum rule update? I somehow missed seeing it in the updates threads list and now there's four more pages of discussion! I was sure the thread got nuked