So, where is all the later 15th century horse bard?

[TadPortly]

Here are some surreptitious pictures from the armoury at the Royal Palace in Madrid with a Burgundian feel  (the last one in particular) - the signs said no flash photography but the guard was insistent that it was no photograpy.  Sadly there are not many books on the Madrid armoury either, but I have one so if I can find it and scan any relevant images in.







regards

Grant

[Arlequín]

The Burgundian influence in Spain begins from the 1490s after Philippe the Handsome's marriage to Juana la loca, which resulted in a 'Burgundian invasion of Spain' when Philipe and his court moved there.

The Spanish obviously did use barding before that though... but like everywhere else it seems few and far between in illustrations.

Great photos though Grant, I've put that place on my 'to go to' list. 

[imperialforge]

Don't know how helpful this will be, but here's me meagre contribution...















This is from 1510, but stylistically similar:



Horse armour:

Gothic knight by Artem, on Flickr

Gothic knight by Artem, on Flickr

Gothic harness for man and horse by Artem, on Flickr

Gothic harness for man and horse by Artem, on Flickr

Gothic harness for man and horse by Artem, on Flickr

[painterman]

Many thanks to all the latest contributors - all gratefully received and adding to the picture of barding.
My current thinking remains that's its relatively rare and most likely to be the apparel of the social elite (so OK for my Bastard of Burgundian group!).

Jericho - finding the Swiss chronicles online last year (as i did) was a big wow factor for my collections - having scratched around for years to find the odd image. Awaiting for the Tschachtlan 1470 Chronicle of Berne (now in Zurich Library) to be added sometime (hopefully), as this appears very useful too for the Swiss and images are hard to find.

Tadportly - now need to find some detailed images from Madrid gallery.

Artem - many thanks for those too. I now have a real sculpting challenge with the painted image!

Thanks, Simon.

[Arlequín]

Stuart, on the off-chance that you have never come across this, or for anyone that's interested, George Lemberger's painting of the Battle of the Spurs is here in quite a large definition.

What I found interesting was that the rear ranks of the men at arms (i.e. what I expect to be custrells or coustilier) seem to be holding polearms rather than lances. Pretty much all the troop types you'd expect to see are there, including a fighting mounted crossbowman in the centre.  

[Stuart]

Thanks Jim

I'm going to eat my own words now - most of the paintings in that series follow a standard format of battle depiction. In this instance it's curious in the absence of longbowmen as well as a rather furious prominent pike fight - which didn't happen. The flags are always the same and generally in the same location but they are consistent with other artists for the illustration of Landsknechts, artillery and cavalry with nice little extras as you've pointed out.

In saying that 2 other images of the siege of Therouanne and the battle of the spurs are like comic strips showing the Anglo imperial camp, siege lines and the cavalry engagement. There are noted sallies of French pike from the city so perhaps that what this is also doing?

This one is curious in its difference to the others, notably that Therouanne is purely representational whereas the others do all look similar. It leads me to conclude that this was created by dictation or a description.

Who knows, they are all lovely though and thanks again.

[Arlequín]

I did wonder at the lack of English standards, as opposed to Imperial ones. I imagine it's great for French and Imperial troops all the same... no marks for the artist for not knowing the English looked different.

 

[Stuart]

This is another Imperial depiction from a book of Maximilian's life / achievements; Der Weiss Konig. It's reasonably accurate, Maximilian advised Henry to place light guns and longbows on a ridge overlooking where the French were expected.

The dress of the longbowmen is accurate too though they still have a slightly Germanic feel to them.

It's things like this which make me wonder how far back the tradition of the wartime artist went?

[Arlequín]

To be fair to Lemberger he was in Landshut and then Regensburg in Bavaria if the painting was done before 1520... about as far from Thérouanne as you can get and still be in the Empire.

I imagine very few artists actually saw a battle, but at least the Flemish and Picards could watch the troops pass by.   

[Stuart]

For a woodcut it's very nicely detailed, the archers sallets are a nice touch.

Paul Dolstein and a couple of others that escape my mind saw service though yep they were in the minority, then there are a couple of very detailed images like this though to be fair Durer is in a class quite apart from the others.

[TadPortly]

Hi Stuart, there seem to be very few photos online and the only book is "Armeria del Palacio Real de Madrid" by Guillermo Quintana Lacaci which is out of print (but easily obtainable), but sadly there are few illustrations:





The Wallace collection book has a couple of period illustrations:





regards

Grant

[Stuart]

Apologies Simon, I've inserted a renaissance matinee into your topic, I got carried away talking to Jim. I hate it when people talk during a film 

[Arlequín]

I'm sure he'll be fine with it, after all a Renaissance army is what his Burgundians want to be when they grow up. 

[painterman]

Quite excited about this one!
Italian source - assumed to be last quarter of 15th century-  but unconfirmed at present.



Simon.

[Stuart]

Nice find, I like the plumes