The price of a miniature

[Vermis]

I'm prepared - was prepared - to glance at this topic, move on, and let people pay what they like. But regarding comments about Heresy Miniatures...

I'm afraid I don't know your company or products at all, so I certainly wasn't referring to you as one of 'the cool kids'. I was talking about outfits like Hasslefree and Heresy, who carry a very definite and cultivated 'cool' cachet.

A premium in pricing terms is 'a sum of money or bonus paid in addition to a regular price'. So if the regular price of a 28mm metal solider is a pound or two, and yours cost a fiver, you are charging a premium. There may be people charging even more of a premium than you, but that doesn't mean you're not.

Nope. It's been a while since I was a regular at the Forum of Doom, but even these days it's not difficult to notice that Andy puts a lot of blood, sweat and tears into his business and his minis, and little of it goes towards cultivating some kind of obfuscating image of 'cool', rather towards fulfilling obligations (like the infamous dragon) and keeping HM going in the face of uphill struggles like that.
I'm not sure where you're getting your impression, beyond a cursory glance and a judgement based on that. In Heresy's early days you might have had a point, considering the crudeness of the earliest sculpts and the claims of a 'comic book style'. But over the years Andy has been very open when it comes to the state of HM, and just what he intends for it, and how his prices are about staying afloat, rather than gouging customers with a 'premium bonus'.

Which brings me to a couple of comments that others have made, along the lines of 'in what other market would sellers plead with their customers' and 'if they're having trouble selling with their prices, they should change their business'.

I think the latter's been answered well enough in this topic, at least in regards to some boutique businesses. (TL;DR: it's not so easy to just lower your prices if it happens that you're not actually gouging the customer with artificially inflated prices) For the former, I can only think to say: "in what other market would you have to?"

'Cos while I balk at the price of some sci-fi/fantasy minis myself, I'd side with those who think prices in the wargaming miniature market is being kept artificially low, rather than artificially high. I do see factors like the disparity between historical and fictional sides of this hobby, including the gaming marker vs. character figurine argument; the demand for enormous armies in 28mm and metal; the folk running miniature business as 'non-profit' hobbies; and the quality of the sculpting.

That last one niggles me. Captain Blood says about 'blobs of metal' (paraphrasing) "one company makes one mini, another company makes another mini and charges more. But where's the diff?"

There's a diff! I like to consider myself both a sci-fi/fantasy and historical gamer, and I can despise a 'twirly' model covered in filigree and giant axes as much as any here (and often do); but in looking round historical ranges of periods that interest me, desperately wanting to like everything, I keep running into big or small problems from the other end of the spectrum. Even in relatively new ranges. Clunky, flat musculature (it doesn't have to be 'roided superhero musculature - it just has to be); expressionless faces; swiss cheese mail; that weird effect where it looks like arms are 1/2 - 2/3 the length they should be; flipper hands (I'd say mitten-hands but even mittens have a thumb). All adding up to an effect of being rushed to get an army-sized range out, while cutting costs. Even Perry metals, as well-sculpted as they are, have had complaints leveled at them about rubbish casting, and I've experienced a little bit of that myself.

So I do like simple miniatures; but there's a difference between simple and crude.

And I have to say that when a some of the old-school names were new-school and making their names, some measure of crudeness seems to have become ingrained. There seems to be a fight about Mark Copplestone going on - I immediately think of his range that really made me take notice of him, the 10mm fantasy range. (If you'll excuse the scale shift, though I don't think the problems here are all down to scale) Among other things, I don't like the wolves with eyes in their temples and pointy snouts. I don't like the half-orcs with weapons and shields that look hurriedly snipped out of plasticard. I don't like the trolls with carpenter's mallets, faces like angry marmots, and trademark cookie-cutter musculature down to the half-a-disc pecs. And I don't like the (to be blunt) bloody awful take on a winged beast. That last one made me run away.

And that's before considering other models and ranges, like the giants in the 15mm fantasy range. Boy, could I write another page of rants about those. To cut a long story short, they're the opposite of Arty's wonderings: an historical/oldschool sculptor producing fantasy minis, but with oldschool sculpting and fantasy prices rather than newer 'fantasy' sculpting and oldschool prices. And they're terrible. The anatomy is mostly nonexistent and confused when it's there, and the details crude and chopped-in. In 40mm tall minis.
Some of you consider fantasy miniatures offensive to your intelligence, because of the price compared to that of historical- or older-style models that you see as 'just the same'. I see these as offensive to the intelligence, not because of the price (although: £7, pffft) but because this is the work of someone being puffed as one of the better mini sculptors, for various reasons. (What was that about cachets?) Or at least, whose sculpting is being touted as 'just the same' as other fantasy sculptors.

At the end of all that: like I said earlier, price is something that makes me hmm and haa when I see minis that I like, but the numbers are higher than a few quid. But when I see minis that are needlessly bad for various reasons, then price is not a factor at all.

You couldn't pay me to take them.

[mcfonz]

Gosh, just, I mean, WOW! Really?

There are so many points here that I just want to hit with a wet kipper, but I would be here all day and smell rather bad by the end of it. Erm, where to start.

1. I didn't say he was one of the 'best sculptors in the world'. I said I don't think a mini sculpted by Kev White is worth two or three times the price of a Copplestone, Hicks, Perry, Owen or Saleh sculpt.

From what I can see the average Hasslefree figure price is around the £4.50-£5 mark. When you look at the individual prices for Copplestone they are £3.00-£3.50. Then you have to factor in that a lot of the Copplestone range is what? 15-20years old now at least.

I actually like Copplestone too. I have both Hasslefree and Copplestone in the same force, but mainly because I use Copplestone for rank and file and Hasslefree for the more individual characters as their quality, IMHO, stands out more.

I actually prefer Copplestone's work. And I'm entitled to my opinion.

Of course, no one is questioning that. No one can make you like or prefer something. But I think we are talking about something different here in terms of preference and more about technical finishing.

Now, I don't like using silly analogies as they tend to be misleading, and it always seems to end up with cars but; Someone may prefer a VW Beatle to say a BMW whatever series. The BMW may well be the more accomplished and technically better car but you still may prefer the look and feel of the Beatle. However, that isn't going to change that the BMW is generally recognised as the superior car and has the price tag to reflect that.

As Artemis has clearly said, this doesn't make Copplestone or any of the other names mentioned worse than anyone else in terms of ability, it just means that the product that you can buy is comparably not as good technically.

If you are being properly neutral I would advise that you look through what painters pick out to enter into painting competitions, generally they are miniatures that are more accomplished sculpts that can showcase their skills in the best possible light.

Finally, the whole "cool" thing. A lot of sci fi and fantasy stuff is now heavily linked to and inspired by popular culture, movies, music, comics, fiction novels, art etc. And whilst at one point in the past being a Geek was to be outcast, to live on the fringes of society, something to keep a secret in case of embarrassment or that you didn't openly share. These days, being a Geek is just another sub-culture and one that has actually become more desirable in recent years, or at least acceptable.

So I am really sorry if I think my toys are cool, and I like to buy toys that I think are cool, and if they tick more boxes for me I am prepared to pay a little more for cool . . . .

[Orctrader]

I like painting Hasslefree stuff...





I also enjoy painting Heresy miniatures...





And I think Copplestone sculpts are also wonderful to paint...



As for price.  Well, I recently paid over £10 with postage for a single Copplestone sculpt.  (From abroad, limited availability.  I want to paint it so, for me, a tenner is worth it.) 

[Mr.J]

Just wading in once again, using Orctraders excellently painted miniatures for illustrative purposes, I can't see how people could suggest that the Copplestone sculpts are any less nicely sculpted than the others. They are in my eyes decently proportioned and detailed AND they average out as £1.20 for rank and file or £1.62 for characters, officers etc. which is stupidly cheap even for historicals.

Now compare that with Hasslefree which are around the £5 mark but anywhere up to £12+ (and what really irks me is the prices on the website don't include VAT which I think is misleading).

Or Heresy whose average human sized figure seems to be around £4.

Most other historical manufacturers tend to sell rank and file around £2.50 but can still manage to get nicely sculpted officers and characters and keep them under £4.00.

AND most are cast in metal rather than shitty resin or resin plastic polymers.

As has been said you pays your money you takes your choice but I have to say I firmly agree with Captain Blood on this.

[mcfonz]

Yeah, people really are not getting it.

Rank and file - if you are going to compare multipacks of rank and file then do that. If you are going to compare individually priced miniatures, do that. But to compare one to the other is really daft. Copplestone has the collection part of his range and the characters that one would say are most like Hasslefree's are £3.00-£3.50.

Rank and file wise, look at the Hasslefree unit packs you'll find they range from £2.00-£3.50 per model, so again, slices your comparison down quite a bit.

As for Orctrader's examples - they are all brilliant examples of his painting on miniatures. And of course all of the miniatures look fine. But that's not what is being said here. And where people keep missing the point.

Compare Harby (The Hasslefree miniature in a longcoat) to the Copplestone officer. One is clearly more accomplished technically than the other - the drapery on Harby is not only fantastic but it marries with the movement suggested in the pose and the body structure the clothing is covering.

The Copplestone officer is far more caricature. You can tell the basic body work and musculature isn't as in depth as Harby's - just look at the shape of that torso for example.

Now, as I said earlier, you may prefer that in a miniature, you may also prefer to shop with a smaller budget - and this is all fine, no one is begrudging you that, but I am really struggling to see why people are unable to take a step back for a second and see the sculpt, see the actual attention to detail captured in those miniatures and see past their wallet etc.

Lastly, why the hell are people complaining about the price of a miniature that they are then saying they would never buy because they prefer Copplestone's style?!!! That's like complaining about the price of a luxury yacht whilst stating you are happier in a small canal barge and would never want a yacht anyway!!!

[Mason]

Far too much angst in this thread....

[Elbows]

Far too much angst in this thread....

Yeeeeeeep.

[OSHIROmodels]

I painted a figure today 

[WillieB]

I'll pay what the manufacturer wants as long as it doesn't pushes my 'too expensive' , 'not worth it' or 'can't afford it ' buttons.

Being an (almost exclusively)historical gamer I'm sometimes stunned by the prices some fantasy figures command. But to each his own. And yes, we historical gamers usually look for a small army or at least a skirmish warband, so multiples of. I personally find manufacturers such as the Perry's , Empress, Gripping Beast, Redoubt and even Foundry amongst others, to have reasonable prices, or at least prices I can afford. Again, your mileage may vary.

I'm not sure I would still buy in the same quantities if these prices doubles. Or I might even simply drop a whole project.

On the other hand I would be quite willing to shell out say 10-15 £ for a single figure if it was for example a limited edition or long OOP and if it would REALLY complete or complement any of my collections.
Only recently I've driven over 600/1200 clicks to get to a show on the off chance they might still have one of their previous free figures available for sale. Well, not just for that particular figure and it was a great show, but it was one of my incentives.

[horridperson]

Far too much angst in this thread....

It went pretty sour from last I checked in.  Thanks to all the sculptors who make me little people to paint. 

[Malamute]

Far too much angst in this thread....

I wouldn't have put it as politely as that.

I think this thread has well and truly run it's course. Whatever your point of view it has been well and truly made now and the thread has now drifted well of course with heated discussion as to the merits of different sculptors work.

Time to let it lie and move on now perhaps?

[Dr DeAth]

Far too much angst in this thread....

. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff, which is what I thought the LAF was all about 

[Orctrader]

. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff...

That's why I posted some.   

Here's another.



Is this a Copplestone sculpt?  I'm sure someone told me it was.  Or perhaps a Saleh?

Anyway, I haven't read all of the postings here, but I was detecting a "this sculptor is better than that one..." theme.

Personally, I only paint well sculpted miniatures because my time is too precious to paint crap.  Some don't like Bob Murch style.  Whereas I really like his style and love to paint his stuff.  As many have said, it's all a matter of personal taste.  I love the Front Rank style.  Some appear to loath it.  There are many HF figures I'd like to paint.  There are other's I wouldn't even if they were given to me free.  Just what I like and what I don't.

As for the pricing of figures I personally don't think I can add anything useful to the debate.   

Anyway, I'm off to look at R10 of the LPL now.  (My entry is Heresy stuff.)

[Arlequín]

. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff, which is what I thought the LAF was all about 

That seems to be the increasingly popular feeling here, although it does feature 'Adventure' in the title and not 'Gallery'. Indeed this is the 'Wargames and Hobby Discussion Board' but I sense there are quite a few people here who haven't gamed for years, if ever.

What was once a broad church that accepted everyone, seems (to me at least) to be shifting increasingly towards an elitist club of painters, producing 'art' with no gaming context whatsoever. 

[Dolmot]

. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff, which is what I thought the LAF was all about 

For that purpose, I'd suggest visiting the LPL forum instead of a pricing topic in "general discussion"...