The price of a miniature

[Kommando_J]

I think the discussion was worth having, i've never seen it discussed before(as im comparatively new here)

I should paint more but my last project as some know guttered out and any posts I made before got no interest so I kinda gave up.

I do have some grand plans for a series of linked scenarios for the ECW/TYW about iconoclasm so a preview here might be forthcoming...

[Artemis Black]

I'm afraid I don't know your company or products at all, so I certainly wasn't referring to you as one of 'the cool kids'. I was talking about outfits like Hasslefree and Heresy, who carry a very definite and cultivated 'cool' cachet. A positioning - well earned from the excellence of their output, choice of subject matter, as well as how they style and communicate themselves - that partly explains why they can successfully charge a premium price from their many loyal fans. 

Just to clarify, we don't charge a 'premium price', not even close. In fact we charge on the low end of the market for the quality of product we offer. Take a look at some of the other sculptors on Kev's level and check the prices of their products.

because 'that' is how you're supposed to compare things. There is some subjectivity but overall it's far more objective than people seem to think. Sculpting quality (and then quality of casting) are different to the artistic side of things and whether you like a sculptor's style or the artwork they are copying. A sculptor's skill is usually tied to how long it takes them to make something which is directly tied to how much that thing then costs. Basic economics.

TWD is correct on pretty much all points. Comparing prices to random other companies isn't the way to go, you just compare to whether or not you want something and then whether you can afford it. We are a luxury market after all, including the historical side. Gaming isn't a necessity or anything.

If what you care about is having 200 of something and you care about it far more than what they individually look like, buy cheap. If you care a lot more that the thing you are buying is aesthetically pleasing, then you don't really get that option as they cost more to make

[Artemis Black]

How much is reasonable for postage?

Did anyone even answer this half?

Postage 'should' go up as your order goes up. Postage is based on weight, your order goes up, the weight goes up. Postal boxes, packaging and wages of the person packing your order also aren't free.

It's up to an individual company if they have priced in free postage to their products, we haven't and I guess Otherworld haven't either. Free postage comes mostly from competing retail stores, especially as it offered a way of an extra discount without 'looking' like an extra discount to the companies who's product they were selling.

Free postage is never free anyway, it's included in the price one way or another

[Kommando_J]

''Postage 'should' go up as your order goes up. Postage is based on weight, your order goes up, the weight goes up.''

Agreed, but in the example I gave (otherworld) prices were based on money spent so you could be paying a few quid extra for comparatively a small amount of extra weight/packaging.

For me anything beyond a tenner is a no no.

[Captain Blood]

Just to clarify, we don't charge a 'premium price', not even close.

Yes, you do. (Assuming you're representing one of the brands I mentioned, Hasslefree or Heresy).
This is the nub of this circular argument.

If you're charging five or six pounds for an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person, and someone else can produce an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person for a pound or two, then you are charging a premium price.

Your argument goes that it's a premium product - the design is better; the sculpting is better; the casting is better. Some of those things are subjective, some less so. But whether the product is 'better' or not, if you're charging three or four times as much as a competitor, that's a price premium.

Of course we're all used to that in every product category in the world. Why is an Audi worth more than a VW worth more than a Skoda (even though they're all essentially the same thing, made by the same company)? Because the quality of design, manufacture and performance is notionally far superior in one brand to the other. Although much of this is actually reputational, and little to do with the actual performance.

What you're really saying, is that a sculpt by Kev is so much better than a sculpt by Paul Hicks, Steve Saleh, Mark Copplestone, The Perrys, Mike Owen etc etc, that it's worth several times the price.

Well that's entirely subjective and depends - like almost everything else in wargaming - on personal taste. Some people are so smitten with Kev's work that they're happy to pay three or four times what they might pay for a figure by any of the above named sculptors. Personally, I'm not. Is his work excellent? Manifestly. Is it worth four times the price of a Perry metal figure? Not to me. That's why no-one involved in this discussion is ever likely to agree. It's down to what you like and what you're prepared to pay for it. And we all see it differently. Which is why this question was never going to cause anything other than an argument - same as it does every time it comes up 

[Kommando_J]

''Which is why this question was never going to cause anything other than an argument - same as it does every time it comes up ''

Didn't mean for that (although a good argument can be healthy, hearing other viewpoints and challenging ones own), was really just asking what would be considered the 'standard' price for minis and postage as GW/ebay has skewed things for me, and i'm wary about committing to new ranges.

''the design is better; the sculpting is better; the casting is better. Some of those things are subjective''

I'd say they all are, look at GW, technically it is more detailed, of better quality and often full of extras...but at the same time while this is increasingly true I think that the above while normally perks are in this case negatives as the miniatures are too big and complicated now and due to the CAD design that makes this possible have certainly lost a good deal of the flavour or soul they had before.

I'd sooner go for the technically lesser but more characterful sculpts of yesteryear over much of this modern Jazz.

Speaking of redoubt, i've heard good things but the site leaves much to the imagination, anyone care to give me the straight skinny?

I'd be interested to here what people think are good/bad, quality/value ranges out there preferably in 28mm for historical and fantasy (although if the mods feel it will cause trouble feel free to say and i'll drop it)

[Silent Invader]

You might get more useful feedback if you gave a bit more info about your present and future projects (maybe you did, I haven't read all of this thread) in the relevant board rather than asking in the general section, and I paraphrase, 'what minis good, what minis bad?'

As has already been commented, this hobby has such a diverse range of genres, aesthetics and materials that such sweeping questions quickly bring forth division rather than resolution.

 

[Arlequín]

I'd be interested to here what people think are good/bad, quality/value ranges out there preferably in 28mm for historical and fantasy (although if the mods feel it will cause trouble feel free to say and i'll drop it)

I don't think that would be a good idea and of course that would be very subjective. Free general discussion is one thing, but 'naming and shaming' or 'the best figures are' type posts rarely end well.

We have Oathsworn and Artemis Black prepared to stick their necks out for their respective companies, but that was their choice... 'outing' other companies who have not chosen to join the discussion is a bit unfair to say the least.

 

[Paddy649]

So toy soldiers are not like cornflakes but they are like craft beer?

What I wouldn't pay - and none of us would - is two or three times the price of an equivalent pint from a big brewer.

But people do......Sainsbury's this morning:  Budweiser £2 per litre.  Leffe £4 per litre.  Bacchus Framboise Raspberry Beer £6.67 per litre.

...and nobody's complaining that Leffe or Bacchus are ripping the punters off because they are not charging the same as Budweiser. Sometimes I'll even buy Leffe (when its on offer) and is does taste good!

The point is that both companies make a profit but catering to different ends of the market.  One sells in bulk and makes a little profit on each unit, one sells less volume at a higher premium BUT both companies make a profit.   In a similar manner to wargames figures homebrew will cost about 30p per litre, have the same effect (temporarily) but screw your guts up and is not the sort of stuff you'd want to share with any except close friends.

If you don't like the prices charged for a figure then don't buy it. Simple as that!  That is the only language they understand - that's why I don't buy figures from the Evil Empire.  It is basic market forces - a vendor will charge not what something is worth, or what it costs to produce but what he can get for it.  Look at the cost of perfume or Audi over Skoda for a perfect example of that.  So it doesn't really matter whether sculptor A is better than sculptor B or whether something is a premium product or price.  Your perception of value only counts when you cash stays in your pocket or when it goes over the counter.  

What I would observe is that in this respect Fantasy and Sci-fi gamers are their own worst enemies.  The historical gamer, who needs to multiply figure costs by 80 or 100 IS far more price sensitive than the Sci-fi or Fantasy gamer buying onesies or twosies.  Hence the price for historicals is cheaper....but I'll admit that there is a significant volume argument in there as well that means a vendor CAN reduce the price and stay in business.  This same rule also applies to the boutique skirmish games, where reduced numbers of figures, packaging with bespoke rulesets and nice artwork all drive up the costs, almost always beyond what I'm willing to pay.

Last point is that I do note that it is the really nice figures - probably ones that have been sold at higher (premium) prices, with really nice paint jobs, are the ones that get the majority of the votes in the LPLs.  Again - we are our own worst enemies. We'll complain about the price but love the nice models.

[Tactalvanic]

There are lists in the relevant forum sections for both "cheap" and more "quality" suppliers related to fantasy. No doubt there are more but its a good starting place, and nice to revisit periodically.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=39902.0
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=27037.0

You could go through them and find what if any suits you. Although those two lists are not necessarily mutually exclusive and the argument in regards to the placing of a supplier in one or the other is not worth the effort - best to just say...

Your mileage will vary on what you like in those as much as anybody else.

At the end of the day, you find the things you like, if you are happy with the price, then you buy, if not, you don't, and you carry on looking

Its really that simple.

You don't need others to tell you which to like, or which is best, because that's up to you. Go look, enjoy seeing all that's on offer, and show us what you can do with it when you find what you think is best/good etc  

[Brummie]

Personally I find these discussions border on being practically useless.

Some seem to forget that miniature wargaming is a LUXURY, it is not an essential to life, the entire industry could die tomorrow and for much of the world its absence would barely be registered.

Fact of the matter is when it comes to something like this the price ranges are going to be huge and costs can be dependent on a whole range of factors. Some of us don't mind paying a lot of money for certain companies figures, because we like them, we want to support their range, and frankly we don't mind the extra expense in pursuing something we enjoy.

I understand for some, penny pinching is a necessity, but for others its a lifestyle choice and one some seemingly try and impose on traders who they feel their prices aren't within their spectrum of 'reasonable' I.E dirt cheap.

The last thing we really need anyway is more cheap stuff to hoard in our lofts and never touch nor see again for years.

[Etranger]

''Postage 'should' go up as your order goes up. Postage is based on weight, your order goes up, the weight goes up.''

Agreed, but in the example I gave (otherworld) prices were based on money spent so you could be paying a few quid extra for comparatively a small amount of extra weight/packaging.

For me anything beyond a tenner is a no no.

That may be down to the post office, as if you go from one weight band to another, the cost can go up a lot. some of the weight bands are fairly narrow. eg http://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/size-and-weight-guidelines.html http://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/uk-standard

[Tactalvanic]

Personally I find these discussions border on being practically useless.

Some seem to forget that miniature wargaming is a LUXURY, it is not an essential to life, the entire industry could die tomorrow and for much of the world its absence would barely be registered.

Fact of the matter is when it comes to something like this the price ranges are going to be huge and costs can be dependent on a whole range of factors. Some of us don't mind paying a lot of money for certain companies figures, because we like them, we want to support their range, and frankly we don't mind the extra expense in pursuing something we enjoy.

I understand for some, penny pinching is a necessity, but for others its a lifestyle choice and one some seemingly try and impose on traders who they feel their prices aren't within their spectrum of 'reasonable' I.E dirt cheap.

The last thing we really need anyway is more cheap stuff to hoard in our lofts and never touch nor see again for years.

Yup that sounds about right

[Artemis Black]

Yes, you do. (Assuming you're representing one of the brands I mentioned, Hasslefree or Heresy).
This is the nub of this circular argument.

If you're charging five or six pounds for an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person, and someone else can produce an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person for a pound or two, then you are charging a premium price.

Uhm, no. Using the word 'premium' to just mean 'more expensive' is not correct.

I don't know if you're just unaware of it but 'premium pricing' is an actual phrase with an actual meaning. It means artificially raising the price of a product to appeal to a certain market who likes expensive things.

Our miniatures cost more because they 'actually' cost more to make. It's incredibly unusual for a sculptor to be able to make a miniature as detailed as something Kev makes in significantly less time than it takes him and that's one of the biggest costs involved per mini. If I wanted him to make minis that we would end up selling for a quid, ignoring the fact that he wouldn't do it , he'd knock them out 'much' quicker and they'd therefore be of a lesser quality
(I'd also not use resin masters for the moulding and I'd get a cheaper caster).

That's the only way to do that and stay in business.

It's not some kind of weird coincidence that historical figures are almost universally of lesser quality. It's just not affordable to have a top sculptor take 3 days to make each footman or whatever and then use the most expensive manufacturing methods no matter how many you think you'll end up selling. The market doesn't bear that kind of end pricing so there have to be cuts in manufacturing to keep costs down.

When you remove the historical companies from the equation, which you should because it's pretty much a different hobby, then we are at the cheaper end of the spectrum for the quality we put out. Like I said, we try very hard to keep ourselves there. Our product could probably stomach a price without losing enough customers to not be covered by that rise but we're trying to keep as many as possible for as long as possible. Ultimately we will lose some as the price rises are inevitable.

[Captain Blood]

Uhm, no. Using the word 'premium' to just mean 'more expensive' is not correct.

A premium in pricing terms is 'a sum of money or bonus paid in addition to a regular price'. So if the regular price of a 28mm metal solider is a pound or two, and yours cost a fiver, you are charging a premium. There may be people charging even more of a premium than you, but that doesn't mean you're not.

Your argument is that it's not a premium because I am comparing apples with oranges - fantasy miniatures are so much higher quality than historical miniatures that a fiver for a metal fantasy miniature is just the norm or at the low end. So I am wrong to compare a Copplestone or Hicks figure for £1.50, with a 'Kev' figure for £5. Even though they are both small lumps of metal cast in the likeness of a person, one is in a different category from the other. As you can tell, I don't agree with you. In your view, the Kev figure is so far superior and takes so long to sculpt it justifies the premium. In my view, it's not and it doesn't. Like I say, it's utterly subjective. Like others have said - it's worth what you're prepared to pay for it. Which was all the original questioner asked!