The price of a miniature

[Gibby]

Flash git. 

[Silent Invader]

t's a completely different argument, and not much to do with the definition of premium pricing?

My post was to do with the wider theory of premium pricing rather than the narrow sound bite.

Anyways, premium pricing isn't something to be ashamed of.

If  costs are higher so that despite the higher retail price a business has a profit margin that isn't commensurately greater than its competitors who produce similar sized lumps of metal with similar manufactured quality, then - being simplistic - the business is either incurring unnecessary production costs or has relatively high overheads or is investing in brand value/market share, etc, or some other thing that it's customers are paying for and in such circumstances, yep, the tag of premium pricing could be inappropriate.

 

[Artemis Black]

You know we've moved on from Minifigs and Hinchliffe? You mentioned Paul Hicks and the Perrys earlier - I don't think you need to hire better sculptors than these surely?

I honestly don't know. I stated earlier that I suspect Paul could match the top sculptors if he put his mind to it and I have the same suspicion about the Perry's. What I do know, is that they definitely couldn't do it in the same time it takes them to produce their current sculpts. I don't need any special info or anything for that, the simple fact is if they could, then they would, as better sculpted minis sell better.

This isn't a diss on historical sculptors, they literally can't afford to take more time as the historical market, by design, requires many more minis to be purchased by each collector. So it's a testament to people like Paul and the Perry's that their work is as good as it is. Skill level, clever use of dollies etc. keeps their time per sculpt down and keeps their pricing at the level that historical companies can afford.

if you asked them to match a sculpt by JAG or Patrick Masson or Mikh or Seb Archer etc. then they possibly could, but they'd likely charge the same as those guys do because it takes them longer and time is money.

I'll accept that there are some awful historical ranges around still (and I wouldn't buy them), but it would have to be a 'historicals' company that is used to selling for less for that scenario to work.

I still have no idea why?

As it stands Captain Blood's 'lead blob' comparison does bear up re:Warlord's own historical versus their GoA range - you have one company making both types at different prices. Also historical figures have to be researched... I don't suppose dwarves get overly criticised for missing buttons and the wrong jackets.

Some would argue that all of the existing artwork for historical stuff makes it easier than having none (or paying to have some done). And Warlord's ranges are different prices because they involved different things. I think someone else said somewhere that GoA required artwork, designers, etc and those costs have to get factored in.

I'd have to go and look at them both to see if there's  quality difference, I don't knwo the ranges well enough offhand.

The trend in 28mm is shifting towards 'Sci-Fi/Fantasy' sized 'skirmish' games (Lion Rampant, Flying Lead etc) and has been for a while. The old big games are beginning to become a relative rarity and now tend to be done in 3, 6, 10, or 15mm.

Even 'cheap' 28mm plastics haven't reversed that trend. As I suspect is the case with 'Zombie games' some people preferred to buy a box or two of plastics, for the unit price of four metal figures to create their 'zombie horde'. Whether they went for metal survivors, or went plastic, you are in a far better position to tell me.

A 28mm 'historical' skirmish game and a 'Modern/Sci-Fi/Fantasy' skirmish game use the same numbers of figures, which would imply that individuals are purchasing equivalent numbers of figures per person, yet the historical skirmisher pays 50-25% of the price of the other

I'd need some examples to comment directly but even within the sculpt levels there will be price discrepancies, it's not like we all get together and decide mini prices Most of us base them simply on what things cost us and how many we think we'll sell etc. Those prices will be different per company and affected by all manner of things; the country you're in, what skillsets exist within the company and what needs to be outsourced, multiple other variables. And then finally you see what you've come up with, check it against the existing market, tweak if necessary and if that number is too high, you start again

[Artemis Black]

Completely agree with you here. It is obviously a subjective matter but I'd take a nicely sculpted, deep detailed Copplestone model over a skinny, twirly, super action posed hyper detailed modern fantasy/sci fi figure any day. It's not even a matter of price or value, just a subjective personal preference in terms of visual appeal, ease of painting and stylistic preference. The latter style of miniature I describe isn't aimed at any particular sculptor, but the modern hyper-detailed action pose skinny model is quite common across many of these premium ranges. They are nice and lots of people obviously love the style, but I prefer Copplestone to them for sure.

I should probably have addressed it originally, but for the record the above quote leaves out the context. I did not mean to suggest that Mark should just hang up his tools and slope off into the sunset

In the context of 'best sculptors in the world' though, which is what it was originally mentioned in, I'm afraid the time has passed where I would list him. He has continued his oldschool style and that rules him out for me. Doesn't stop him being anyone's favourite sculptor but there are always going to be some objective parts of artistic judgement as well as subjective ones.

[TWD]

Yes.

Because craft beer is a niche, low volume, relatively high cost and high price product.

OK

Miniatures are far more akin to a craft beer, though you might argue that the market doesn't sustain a similar margin.

Wait. What? So they are the same, but they're not.
I do wish you'd make your mind up.

*snip marketing stuff*

Thanks for the explanation of how marketing works.
I'll pop it in the file with my CIM certificates.

Not that different marketing techniques was ever really my point.

My point was (and remains) that you don't seem to apply the same rules to your toy soldier purchases that you do to other aspects of your purchasing life.
Your reasons, as far as I understand it, for not buying certain models is because they are doing marketing wrong (and expecting you to pay for it).

Other aspects of your life also expect you to pay for marketing but you don't analyse if they're doing right or wrong marketing you just buy based on the "do I like it, can I afford it matrix".

But we're just going to carry on going round in circles so I think I'll duck out at this point.

[Tactalvanic]

I bought some figures earlier.

Didn't bother looking at the price 

Bet you didn't even weigh them either -  oh to be the 1% of the hobby 

[Arlequín]

I still have no idea why?

In trying to not write an essay I didn't make that clear, sorry.  

A new company with a F/SF background and which has never dabbled in historicals, has a fair idea of what a miniature will sell for in their 'hobby'; after all they have probably bought loads themselves in the past before entering as a commercial concern. They naturally expect that their miniatures will sell within a similar price range... which they certainly will all things being equal.

A historical company which has never dabbled in F/SF has a fair idea of what they will sell for in their 'hobby' for the same reasons as above.

I was merely wondering what would happen if a company entered the F/SF arena and produced figures of comparable quality to what was there already, but at the 'historicals prices' they are used to selling at. Such an event would be unlikely unless they had lived under a rock for thirty years or so, but I do wonder whether there might be a 'price war' as a result?

I'm not saying that would be good thing btw, as the fallout would be both saddening and unhealthy for the hobby. I'm sure we are all aware of what happens on the High Street when one (or more) of the big four open up a hypermarket in or near a town. Being the best butcher in town counts for little in that scenario and surviving to become the only butcher in town is often the best case outcome.

[Artemis Black]

In trying to not write an essay I didn't make that clear, sorry.  

A new company with a F/SF background and which has never dabbled in historicals, has a fair idea of what a miniature will sell for in their 'hobby'; after all they have probably bought loads themselves in the past before entering as a commercial concern. They naturally expect that their miniatures will sell within a similar price range... which they certainly will all things being equal.

A historical company which has never dabbled in F/SF has a fair idea of what they will sell for in their 'hobby' for the same reasons as above.

I was merely wondering what would happen if a company entered the F/SF arena and produced figures of comparable quality to what was there already, but at the 'historicals prices' they are used to selling at. Such an event would be unlikely unless they had lived under a rock for thirty years or so, but I do wonder whether there might be a 'price war' as a result?

I'm not saying that would be good thing btw, as the fallout would be both saddening and unhealthy for the hobby. I'm sure we are all aware of what happens on the High Street when one (or more) of the big four open up a hypermarket in or near a town. Being the best butcher in town counts for little in that scenario and surviving to become the only butcher in town is often the best case outcome.

I think there's just some disconnect between us.

I'm missing some reasoning somewhere. You don't need to be into this hobby at all to work out how much minis sell for in either market. I don't sell historical mins but it wouldn't take me  very long to work out the price points if I didn't already know them.

The reason that a company hasn't done what you suggest is that its a very, very, bad idea It doesn't matter who does it. It certainly wouldn't lead to a price war, it would lead to a bunch of sci-fi/fantasy companies taking bets on how long until the new company goes under

Producing figures 'of comparable quality' costs more money. If you make something that costs more money but sell them at the price point of something that costs less money then that is generally a fast track to bankruptcy.

If anyone 'could' do it, they already would have. I assure you I mean no insult when I say that it's not a revolutionary idea that nobody has had.

The drive to plastics is in fact part of this reasoning. At the moment however plastics, even from China, require a fair investment and the quality still doesn't match top end regular sculpting. That may, or may not, change in coming years. If it does change then 'all' fantasy/sci-fi companies will likely charge less per figure as their costs have gone down.

[Geckilian]

As a somewhat side point the the pretty nifty discussion, if Hasslefree ended up making plastic models with the same level of detail and design aesthetics as their metals, then I'd suddenly need to find more hobby budget...

For me, I started wargaming close to 2 decades ago when I was a kid, and I'm still pretty young now. For years and years I was a GW hobbyist and paid their prices - when I grew older and more informed and went to other companies the price difference was an eye opener. Unlike a lot of you all it seems, I still buy Gw products from time to time as I still enjoy the background, aesthetics, plastic kits and so on. However since I was used to that price point for so, so long, other 'premium priced' products, or simply 'expensive' products come across to me as really not.

Sorry to use Hasslefree as a comparison but they're a company I regularly buy from so it suits - £5 to £6 for a model, factoring vat and postage split across the models, is still significantly cheaper for me in a project compared to the hilarious £18+ GW charges for a plastic character these days. So to me at least, Hasslefree is very reasonable with what it charges, even though as a hobbyist I enjoy thinking of 'what if they were cheaper?' Only because I'd like more faster!

Another example that comes to mind of a company trying to price something reasonably and getting smashed in the face with costs is Heresy Miniatures and the dragon of financial doom. The amount of issues and costs that thing incurred was astronomical, compounded with the fact that Andy seems to be some kind of mould and casting press bad luck magnet. At the price point it would (should) have realistically been it still doesn't seem worth making the thing as someone could in theory go out and buy a MacFarlane Dragon of comparable size for a tenth of the cost, and actually have less gap filling to do.

If every company didn't factor all the costs for making something it just seems like the dragon to me - a labor of love that isn't necessarily the best financial choice which end up delaying the expansion of a range and thus bringing sales down even further due to the lack of new items to draw back punters.

I think I made a point there? Honestly not sure really, just typed out what was on my mind after reading all this.

Of course as someone who loves to convert, my skirmish force for a post-apoc game not only has Hasslefree models, but converted bits from other Hasslefree models. My next goal is to make one combining the head and arm of one on to another. Now THAT's where it starts to get pricey.....

[Captain Blood]

In the context of 'best sculptors in the world' though, which is what it was originally mentioned in, I'm afraid the time has passed where I would list him. He has continued his oldschool style and that rules him out for me.

1. I didn't say he was one of the 'best sculptors in the world'. I said I don't think a mini sculpted by Kev White is worth two or three times the price of a Copplestone, Hicks, Perry, Owen or Saleh sculpt. I suspect what this really comes down to is that you think your man is no mere putty-pusher like these others, but an artist of true stripe, who deserves to sell for much more. Just good old-fashioned artistic superiority. Yet as you acknowledge, preferences about style and execution are subjective. You happen to think your figures are worth three times a much as a regular miniature because of the quality of the work, the time that's gone into them and the quality of the production process - fine. You're entitled to your opinion.
I don't think they are worth that kind of multiplier. I actually prefer Copplestone's work. And I'm entitled to my opinion.

2. What it costs you to make is not the same as what they're worth on the market. There are obviously plenty of people who are prepared to pay what you say they're worth. And then there will plenty of others who aren't.

3. As far as the semantics go, I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia as your final arbiter of all truth online.
If you're charging more for a product than someone else that's selling a broadly similar product, that's a premium. You can argue that the premium is justified on grounds of quality etc, but you can't argue that it's not a premium. The dictionary.com definition of premium (as it relates to price) is: 'a sum above the nominal or par value of a thing' or 'at an unusually high price'. You take your definition, I'll take mine.

4. You're being disingenuous in attempting to justify charging a premium based purely on the idea that it's all about production time and cost. It's also very much about brand. Hasslefree have a great brand and a well-developed brand narrative. It's got lots of different elements (I could spell them all out for you if you like) that taken together make Hasslefree's loyal customers very happy, and make them want to belong to that happy world of 'nice people, cool toys, great service'. It's the brand positioning - tied, I will say it again, to a very good product - that allows the premium price to be charged. Not explanations about how terribly expensive and time-consuming it costs to produce said 'toys'.

Anyway, I'm not arguing about this any more. Nuff said 

[Artemis Black]

1. I didn't say he was one of the 'best sculptors in the world'. I said I don't think a mini sculpted by Kev White is worth two or three times the price of a Copplestone, Hicks, Perry, Owen or Saleh sculpt.

Nobody said you did, the context in question was mine. I brought up whether they were the best sculptors in the business.

I suspect what this really comes down to is that you think your man is no mere putty-pusher like these others, but an artist of true stripe, who deserves to sell for much more. Just good old-fashioned artistic superiority.

No, if I meant that i would have said it. I do think Kev's work is better, but I also think that Kev's work takes longer to produce. One tends to lead to the other, hopefully anyway. If Something takes longer to produce it tends to cost more.

Yet as you acknowledge, preferences about style and execution are subjective. You happen to think your figures are worth three times a much as a regular miniature because of the quality of the work, the time that's gone into them and the quality of the production process - fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is that figures of a higher quality, that therefore take longer to make and are more costly to produce should be priced higher. That's basic business.

I don't think they are worth that kind of multiplier. I actually prefer Copplestone's work. And I'm entitled to my opinion.

Of course you are, you can prefer whatever you like.

2. What it costs you to make is not the same as what they're worth on the market. There are obviously plenty of people who are prepared to pay what you say they're worth. And then there will plenty of others who aren't.

Again, nobody said what you are seemingly arguing against.

3. As far as the semantics go, I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia as your final arbiter of all truth online.

It's not semantics and I can happily point to dozens of other sites explaining what the definition of premium pricing is.
 

If you're charging more for a product than someone else that's selling a broadly similar product, that's a premium. You can argue that the premium is justified on grounds of quality etc, but you can't argue that it's not a premium. The dictionary.com definition of premium (as it relates to price) is: 'a sum above the nominal or par value of a thing' or 'at an unusually high price'. You take your definition, I'll take mine.

Except you're not. You are trying to parse two different things. Someone charging £2000 for a for a 4k ultra hd 3d smart 60" television is not charging a premium because you can get a 14" black and white crt one from Ebay.  You have to compare like to like, and no amount of pretending all figures are just lumps of metal, just like all televisions are just plastic boxes filled with circuits and wiring, will make that true.

4. You're being disingenuous in attempting to justify charging a premium based purely on the idea that it's all about production time and cost. It's also very much about brand. Hasslefree have a great brand and a well-developed brand narrative. It's got lots of different elements (I could spell them all out for you if you like) that taken together make Hasslefree's loyal customers very happy, and make them want to belong to that happy world of 'nice people, cool toys, great service'. It's the brand positioning - tied, I will say it again, to a very good product - that allows the premium price to be charged. Not explanations about how terribly expensive and time-consuming it costs to produce said 'toys'.

I'm not attempting to justify charging a premium price, I was simply pointing out that we are not doing so.

The things that you mention, hopefully, mean that we maintain our customer base, not that we can charge a higher price. Our competitors are 'not' historical companies, they are similarly and higher priced sellers of high quality fantasy/modern/sci-fi miniatures. Our branding, customer service and other extras, again hopefully, make us a more attractive company to deal with but ultimately the customer just has to like the miniatures we make. It's not like someone looking for a female sorceress is going to buy a male orc or a napoleonic drummer from a different company instead because it was a pound cheaper.

[6milPhil]

6mm wins out, 96 figures for £5.80 

[Vanvlak]

6mm wins out, 96 figures for £5.80 

2mm is cheaper still..... 

[Dags]

A much fairer comparison to the Perry's would be Empress...

Both have highly regarded historical sculptors working from dollies and produce similar ranges yet the Twins charge £7 for 6 minis and Empress £7 for 4... 50% more.



Are Empress charging too much? Or ripping punters off? No. Of course they're not. Empress use, probably, the best contract caster - that costs more. They also have a better quality control.

The sculpts are of a similar level but I've never had to send an Empress figure back or complain about the casting.

[Arlequín]

I think there's just some disconnect between us...
*snip*
If anyone 'could' do it, they already would have. I assure you I mean no insult when I say that it's not a revolutionary idea that nobody has had.

None taken and I'm sure batting off several bowlers at once isn't helping. I was very much in the realms of 'if' as opposed to 'could'.

A much fairer comparison to the Perry's would be Empress...

Probably, but then Empress don't have 'in-house' sculptors, so not quite a good comparison in terms of price and outlay, but as close as you're likely to get in terms of quality at least.