Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: joroas on 15 June 2010, 04:11:57 PM
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With the new rules coming in at a hefty £45, plus new bits, I think it's time I shed my armies or looked for some new rules........... :-[
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Or just use the old ones. :D The good news about 8th ed. is that my flgs sold the 7th ed. starter box for $40 US. So I finally bought 7th ed. as it's going out. lol
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I always loved 4th/5th Ed the most and would always play them over more recent incarantions by preference. I'm not sure I still have my 4th Ed books though :(.
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For 528 glossy pages it's not bad value at all really. I'll be getting mine straight away :D
At least it's not a tournament version (or that's what I've heard)
cheers
James
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Warhammer really captured my imagination, but I really grew tired of the 'new revamp' every year or so. I'm glad I got off the merry-go-round.
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Warhammer really captured my imagination, but I really grew tired of the 'new revamp' every year or so. I'm glad I got off the merry-go-round.
Quoted for Truth.
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Never understood the need to follow GW's incessant rule and army list changes - Go SOBH!
For skirmishes at any rate! :D
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It's a complaint about the rapidly spiralling cost of books, if you do a number of periods and they get reissued regularly.
This last year then, FOW and 2 army books (version 3) at £30 each, the WHFB 2 at £32, now WHFB 8 at £45. To buy them once is expensive, but knowing that they will be obsolete in a year or two is annoying..........
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If I buy it, it will be for the fluff and for the full colour images.
£45 is not that much to ask for those things.
That aside, there will be places selling it for far less, 15% off? ;)
If you do want another system, there's loads out there too.
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No chance of getting your gaming group to stick with the current edition Joroas?
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Well, you know how these things will go, someone will buy it, go to a tournament, whatever. At the back of my mind, though, is the thought, "Do I still want to do this?"................. ???
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The only hardback GW rulebooks I've bought are for Lord of the Rings game, and I feel they're heavily padded with pictures and painting advice for beginners to justify the price tag. Since I'm not currently a WFB player, I can't see this pulling me in.
What I am looking forward to is the boxed starter set - both Skull Pass and Black Reach were excellent value, and the Black Reach figures were really nice. I can see it as a future purchase.
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Is the new system a total revamp, in the vein of LOTR?
What miniatures come with it?
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For now there is only the rulebook................
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Actually, and I dropped out of large scale gaming a while a go, I think this edition sounds quite promissing. As far as I can judge It's back to infantry, more empasy on regular troops instead of totally overpowered characters (at least for most armies), and magic seems to change for the better (even harder, but also much much wilder).
Still, I guess I could get more fun out of warhammer historical or another of such wargames, mixed with homebrewed rules for unnatural stuff... But I'm actually tempted by this edition... god help me!
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But I'm actually tempted by this edition... god help me!
You're supposed to be talking me out of it................ lol
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At the same time in Sweden, phreedh awaits the delivery of his recently purchased hardbound 3rd edition book.
:)
Previous posters are right, it's nice to be off the merry go round. What killed WHFB and 40K for me was the fact that the only people I got to play with were people at a club, who lived and breathed this stuff. For me it was a past-time, I didn't even memorize my own army's (yeah, I had only one for each game) rule set. I had no idea what the other guy's guys would or could do. I was too casual about it. To play all-comers games, you really need to know the rules and all the armies - not by heart but at least the gist of it.
Now, I play SOBH in the basement with my mates and we enjoy fudging the rules as we go along, just having fun. I buy old WHFB stuff for inspiration, and revel in not having to memorize hundreds of pages of rules. I miss WHFB at times, the large scale battle and so forth. Hoping I'll be able to find a nice, compact rule set to substitute it with. HOTT is on the menu, but I'm not convinced yet.
Needless to say, I won't be buying WHFB 8... :) Those of you who do, have fun! I'm sure the game is better than ever.
Edit: Woah, sorry about the blog post... :D
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System wise making it more like LOTR would be nice. However you could just pick up a version of those rules and go from there. Right now I'm enjoying the War of the Ring rules, although I'm considering going with a smaller scale given that the LoTR minis are creeping up in price.
Is the new system a total revamp, in the vein of LOTR?
What miniatures come with it?
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If your not into tournament play, all you need is the copy of the rules you like to play with handy when someone wants to play a miniature game and your all set.
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I don't think £45 is an unreasonable price for a rulebook when you consider its around the same as a computer game and in a busy gaming year brimming with good releases I might buy one of those a month (not so much these days but it has been known).
I think the bone of contention is when GW keep revamping the rules rapidly, it smacks of not just change for the sake of change (which is bad enough), but change for the sake of 'loadsa money'.
They haven't got anything else to peddle to gamers so they just keep cranking out the same old thing with largely needless tweaks. Once upon a time they even corrected or modified rules by publishing the tweaks in White Dwarf. I can't imagine that happening now (though admittedly I haven't picked up a copy of that particular mag for a long while).
I actually loved it when they officially had multiple titles on the go and fully supported them with supplements and miniatures, the heyday for me of GW was in the early-to-mid 90's when you had:
WHFB, WH40K, Space Hulk, Inquisitor, Morheim, Necromunda (arguably the finest game they've ever produced), Gorkamorka, Warmaster, Epic 40K, Bloodbowl and Warhammer Historical. Add to that with the current LOTR line and some other stuff they could have re-released or introduced fresh such as Warhammer Quest and that prototype Ork Racing game they had going at GamesDay when Gorkamorka was released (Formula WAAAAGH!! I think?) and you'd have a very diverse set of products worthy of the punters cash, without the need for constant revamps, or at least slow the rate down with more systems to work through.
@ joroas: I agree with phreedh, it might an idea for you to try and find a more casual gaming group. Still with WHFB if you prefer it by all means, I wouldn't suggest abandoning it all together but just leave the merry-go-round :). If you love the setting and the atmosphere of Warhammer don't be driven out of it by rules updates and hardcore players.
Which raises the point - surely there are in existance WHFB gaming groups who specifically only use previous edition rulesets?
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"I think the bone of contention is when GW keep revamping the rules rapidly, it smacks of not just change for the sake of change (which is bad enough), but change for the sake of 'loadsa money'."
They are one and the same. The change is partly to keep the game from stagnating and part to keep them in business. I'd bet they'd be out of business less than a year after their last book if they ever decided to freeze the rules in place.
Not to mention it keeps them in the public eye with legitimate news items and it gives people something to look forward to. What you dislike is what they need to survive as a company and keep the game fresh for the fans. Why begrudge them it?
"the heyday for me of GW was in the early-to-mid 90's when you had:... "
Yeah, and didn't they start losing money then? :) Not to mention these games "tragic deaths" kept them from feature bloat like most long supported games. And most of them are free in the form of 'living rule books' that the fans have had a hand in, some like EPIC Armageddon are even getting more army lists from fan playtesters.
I don't play their games much, I'm just tired of the $$$$$$EVIL EMPIRE$$$$$$!!!!!!!! B.S.
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I mainly just play with friends - usually something to augment our D&D campaign. I like a lot of the rumored changes, and so I will probably pick it up. Also, I am a sucker for really pretty rulebooks - bought Black Powder and LaSalle even though I know full well I will likely never play a game of either - and I have spent enough time admiring the miniatures that I figure I've gotten my money's worth out of them.
Given that I am the one usually pulling together our WHF games, and they are already often a weird hybrid (Warhammerized versions of the D&D player characters running about), I may well wind up playing a hybrid of the seventh and eighth editions.
I do like the new templates and tokens, by the way!
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I do like the new templates and tokens, by the way!
Yes, all the new gear is so tempting.................. :'(
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Yes, all the new gear is so tempting.................. :'(
Isn't it though ;)
It looks like the magic deck is back, which is another reason for me to buy it (that and the incredible amount of pretty pictures inside :D )
cheers
James
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I dropped out of GW stuff a wee while back though I still keep an eye on it cause I love the background (when it isn't being trodden all over in the interests of selling a shiney new product).
A friend of mine still plays though and gave me a run through of the kinda changes he noticed when he got a look at the book.
Basicly the game sounds less tactical and a lot more focused on randomness and rolling loads of dice.
"Complicated" things like guess range weapons are gone, charge distances can be pre-measured but charging is normal move + 2d6 (3d6 pick 2 highest for Mv7+), units all fight in 2 ranks minimum sometimes more, units all shoot in 2 ranks.
Personally I'm not sure if it's a good move, but considering it's the way 40k went I'm not surprised Fantasy is following.
The only tempting factor would be the GW store itself, my area doesn't have a single wargaming club, but that is a VERY double edged sword. I think I'd rather scrape together enough parts to make a small board of my own and find a good skirmish game with lots of character and tactical depth...
Now if only I could stop changing my mind on what setting/genre I want.
::)
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TBH, I still buy the rulebooks (not all the armybooks though) for eyecandy.
One of the rumoured changes in this edition is taking the average points cost per side of a game to 3000 instead of 2000, which has to be driven by the cheeky desire to sell more miniatures.
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That's a fairly good point, I mean I've got a couple of the Imperial Armour books for that reason.
I guess I just tend to get my eyecandy from Comics and Novels more now, and goodness knows that's by no means cheaper.
:-X
The "average game size" thing is a bit of a funny one because different countries, different stores even, tend to just naturally end up with their own level of what an average game size is. Then again books saying "this is a good sized army" is far from new but if they've started bumping up the size of army they put that under...yes cheeky to say the least.
Also large ish, ogre/troll/minotaurs/etc, and large, giants/dragons/etc creatures have been given a lot of new bonus rules to make them even more dangerous...strange that when they've been releasing so many monster kits recently.
;)
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Also large ish, ogre/troll/minotaurs/etc, and large, giants/dragons/etc creatures have been given a lot of new bonus rules to make them even more dangerous...strange that when they've been releasing so many monster kits recently.
;)
I think you'll find that's the other way round, the rules were finished a long time ago and the figures will be put in around that. The 3 model per rank rule for 40mm bases was a much needed 'fix' from the last edition. Forcing a unit of Ogres to be 5 wide in two ranks before it starts to get any of it's bonuses made the army practically useless. I played with my Ogre army once in the last edition before shelving it, and those Ogre armies that I did see used were essentially Gnoblar armies with a few Ogres in it. I'm looking forward to the new edition.
Yes, they have upped the number of figures/points in an army. Doesn't bother me as we mostly played larger games anyway but I can see that annoying many people.
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Yes, they have upped the number of figures/points in an army. Doesn't bother me as we mostly played larger games anyway but I can see that annoying many people.
Yeah I'm one of those people. I've generally enjoyed smaller games, as it forces people to make harder choices with unit selections, and more careful with their units as they have less to throw away.
But back to the thread, I'm really not impressed now, after 18 years playing GW games, I gave up 40k last year, and it looks like WFB might be going this year too.
Duncan
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See, I still love 40k and I struggle to get into WHFB. I don't like many of the modern figs and I don't have enough old Dwarfs to make an army the size that they suggest. I prefer 1000 point games, quick and nasty.
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Damn, I'm getting splinters from sitting on this fence..........
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Yeah, I *think* I want it, but I really can't tell...
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IF you were to switch to the new edition (and there's no reason you have to), there's nothing to stop you playing smaller games. They've just upped the 'average' play level, which in reality changes nothing for any given gaming group unless they want it too.
I've cut down to 2 armies for Warhammer and 1 for 40k and all those armies can be used elsewhere. I dislike the 40k rules, I just don't think it's a very good game at all. Warhammer had bored me (and rendered on of my armies useless) but from what I'm being told of the new edition, I'm getting interested again. My only dissapointment is they didn't make archers more useful, I'd have liked to see the WAB archer rules put into WFB, as lines of archers is really unwieldy and awkward in a game.
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My suggestion is to stop playing for a while (at least 12 months), don't sell any models. Then play again and see if your interest is re-sparked. It has work for me. I have been playing since 1st, but I have had few breaks. I have always been keen after a break. Play Hordes for 12 months and then return - WH will always be there.
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There will be a boxed set with High Elves and Skaven, so no guesses as to the new Army Books and model ranges.
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I think you'll find that's the other way round, the rules were finished a long time ago and the figures will be put in around that. The 3 model per rank rule for 40mm bases was a much needed 'fix' from the last edition. Forcing a unit of Ogres to be 5 wide in two ranks before it starts to get any of it's bonuses made the army practically useless. I played with my Ogre army once in the last edition before shelving it, and those Ogre armies that I did see used were essentially Gnoblar armies with a few Ogres in it. I'm looking forward to the new edition.
Well in addition to that they've also all got extra attacks on the charge and stuff too. I guess it kinda started with the "giant for every army thing" then as they released more big monsters and started planning the new edition they though hey lets make them a choice so good EVERYONE will buy them.
???
I'm kinda a year or two into my first propper break after like 15 years of gaming with the evil empire, the only reason I really stuck with it so long were friends who played and only having a GW store to play in no clubs. Playing a LOT of "specialist games" kept me going too, till they got restricted to one night a week and only the one specialist game they say you could play in that block of weeks.
That's because our unorganised pick up games were too popular with other people in the store and caused the store to lose sales on the "core" games.
::)
Aaanyway I digress, so far new fantasy isn't really drawing me back at all, though it isn't flat out pushing me away like the last edition of 40k did. Still weighing up returning to the local GW store versus getting off my arse making some scenery and having friends round to game though.
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I thought the last edition boxed sets were really good value but in a couple of years they went from $50US to $82.50US. That's just being ridiculous. In addition the hardbound books always fall apart. All my other books last a lifetime, but the binding on these is so horrible, how can I justify the price tag? The new gear does look good and the return to card driven magic is nice, but they just appear to be recycling stuff from earlier editions hoping the newest fanbois don't remember.
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8th edition may get me back into large fantasy games but i think i will wait until the small rulebooks are on ebay as i don't need another catalogue of GW figures.
The rules look more like warhammer historiocal/LotR now
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Talking to one of the guys in the local GW on saturday - apparently there's a big "how to assemble you plastic figures" section in the new rule book as well as how to set up the table top etc.
Units will be larger too - going to the old school idea of 30-50 figures per unit - more figure sales as has already been said.
Until I heard that and then saw the price tag I was tempted by 8th - but at the end of the day unless you play tournaments or in the store why bother upgrading anyway? And if the local gamers upgrade - read their rulebook!
If you just want a game of warhammer stick with the edition you have, I have 1st to 5th with 4th/5th being used most often.
The new box set will allegedly have High Elves and Skaven - real pity, if it was orcs and empire i'd have got one or two.
vT
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There will be a boxed set with High Elves and Skaven, so no guesses as to the new Army Books and model ranges.
Skaven have just had their release (I should know, I bought a load :D )
I heard it was Dark Elves from somewhere, don't see the point in that myself so I'd go with High Elves.
EYE CANDY ;D :D :D
cheers
James
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"the heyday for me of GW was in the early-to-mid 90's when you had:... "
Yeah, and didn't they start losing money then? :) Not to mention these games "tragic deaths" kept them from feature bloat like most long supported games. And most of them are free in the form of 'living rule books' that the fans have had a hand in, some like EPIC Armageddon are even getting more army lists from fan playtesters.
I don't play their games much, I'm just tired of the $$$$$$EVIL EMPIRE$$$$$$!!!!!!!! B.S.
Actually I would argue the reason they started losing so much money was insisting on opening a store in every single backwater town across the globe.
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I heard it was Dark Elves from somewhere, don't see the point in that myself so I'd go with High Elves.
Wayland's site says High Elves........
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Fair enough, I heard it from someone who said they got it of Bell of Lost Souls ::) lol
cheers
James
(go on, you know you want to )
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It seems like all their rules lately are driven by the "buy a metric pantload of miniatures" philosophy. That War of the Ring ruleset looked like they were warhammerizing LOTR. I think LOTR was their best game. Then they put it on steroids to sell more figs, fair enough it's a business, however they appear to be doing the same with 40K and now WH.
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The new gear does look good and the return to card driven magic is nice, but they just appear to be recycling stuff from earlier editions hoping the newest fanbois don't remember.
While I'm currently keeping myself a barge pole distance away from anything GWish too, isn't this a bit of a "darned if you do" argument (with the usual "fanboi" decoration on top)? The most common sentiment seems to be that everything was better back then. Now if something from that golden age is reintroduced, that is evil too. Not so simple to please some people? :?
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I think the issue there is many people feel GW can do whatever they want and enough people will lap it up to keep them afloat one way or another - they can do no wrong. Good business perhaps but this is not a situation in which original creativity or a genuinely thoughtful approach can thrive. Its exactly the same for the computer games industry.
Basically, like a spoiled child they both need to grow up a bit but as long as they're making money by not doing so they never will.
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Spong: "Actually I would argue the reason they started losing so much money was insisting on opening a store in every single backwater town across the globe."
Ahem, I've lived in three states in the US, near their largest population centers and have never been within a days drive of one. I've only ever seen GW stores in large metropolitan areas and in larger English towns. I hardly think opening stores near lonely cattle trails is part of their marketing plan.
Doomsdave: "That War of the Ring ruleset looked like they were warhammerizing LOTR. I think LOTR was their best game. Then they put it on steroids to sell more figs"
Actually I think it had at least as much to do with people asking for a larger scale game to do the big battles from the movies and books. Giving the people what they want and selling more stuff at the same time? What a concept! :)
It's the same with their Armageddon rules for 40k and maybe even in the new edition of Fantasy. Most gamers tend to want tons of crap on the table whether it really makes a better game or not.
I like what I've heard about 8th edition so far, then again I've been seriously thinking about adapting Black Powder to ancient/fantasy games. The fact that stats aren't attached in any meaningful way to unit sizes can be a useful thing in the wrong hands. :)
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Actually mate, I thought LOTR was their worst set of rules.
WOTR, I have no played, but is just simplified warmaster I have heard. Not necessarily a bad thing when you have collected as many LOTR figs as me!
Apocalypse, they also state, is for multiple player games or use of WHOLE collections with WHATEVER they own. It is a game by veterans for veterans with more stuff than necessary! I.e. the last game I played, I used 5 shokk attack guns, only 1 was new, the other 4 are all the old one! I would never use the old ones normally, but hey, it was good fun! So was fielding 100 of those facking terrible old plastic grots!!!! ;D
If they do a warhammer version, I would be happy as I could play it with my friends on my side. I don't really like games of warhammer over 1000 points when it is just 1 vs 1, I like 4 players or something. Even when I play Slaughterloo, I don't like moving too much around on my own. :)
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Spong: "Actually I would argue the reason they started losing so much money was insisting on opening a store in every single backwater town across the globe."
Ahem, I've lived in three states in the US, near their largest population centers and have never been within a days drive of one. I've only ever seen GW stores in large metropolitan areas and in larger English towns. I hardly think opening stores near lonely cattle trails is part of their marketing plan.
I have 2 stores within 5 miles of here, and at least 10 within 50...................
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lol. High quality paper that looks and feels like bog roll! :o
I admit though, I spent £40 on printed SOBAH books and I reckon this would be better value. lol
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While I'm currently keeping myself a barge pole distance away from anything GWish too, isn't this a bit of a "darned if you do" argument (with the usual "fanboi" decoration on top)? The most common sentiment seems to be that everything was better back then. Now if something from that golden age is reintroduced, that is evil too. Not so simple to please some people? :?
Could be. I'm not your typical GW hater. I just don't see a lot of value in many of their revisions. I don't mind if anyone else does. I don't think the earlier editions were the holy grail. I just think they are revisiting a lot of older concepts to appear to be doing something different. What put me off about them was the seemingly inordinate price increases, coupled with their shutdown of all the stores and events in the Southeastern US. It's easier and more cost effective for me to do other systems/minis. As my entire family (wife + 3 sons) paints and games we tend to invest a lot in our hobby and we get more bang for our buck elsewhere now. To each his own. The hobby market obviously has a place for GW and more power to them. I'll just take my custom elsewhere in most cases.
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Well said - I too don't hate GW either - just have a rose-tinted view of the stuff that was around when I were a lad!
Also I'm poor! :'(
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rob_alderman "WOTR, I have no played, but is just simplified warmaster I have heard."
It's not. I have the book, but don't remember the rules too well. However, it doesn't resemble warmaster in any way, shape, or form. It also doesn't resemble it's parent rules either...
joroas "I have 2 stores within 5 miles of here, and at least 10 within 50...."
So would I if I lived nearer Chicago. I'm willing to bet you live in or very near a highly populated area.
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Get off the merry go round- its spinning too fast and shaking the change out of your pockets.
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joroas "I have 2 stores within 5 miles of here, and at least 10 within 50...."
So would I if I lived nearer Chicago. I'm willing to bet you live in or very near a highly populated area.
No, just check out how many stores there are in the UK.
For example, I live in Kenilworth, 8 miles or so from Coventry (store), 5 Miles from Leamington (store), 20 miles from Birmingham (store), 25 miles from Solihull (store)... Then there's Nuneaton, Stratford-Upon-Avon, A stockist in Warwick, there used to be a stockist in Kenilworth.... A bit further out you have Sutton Coldfield, Dudley, A stockist in Banbury and the Oxford store.
I have no problem with that as well. They close stores if they don't succeed. Most of Britain is quite highly populated. You go to the south, you have London, the midlands, Birmingham or Nottingham, the North, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester.
I reckon some of you guys might be moaning just for moanings sake. Sure, you may have an argument, but what's it gonna do?
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joroas "I have 2 stores within 5 miles of here, and at least 10 within 50...."
So would I if I lived nearer Chicago. I'm willing to bet you live in or very near a highly populated area.
Most of the UK is within 50 miles of a main town, I live in a town of 100,000, the next city, also 100,000 and 5 miles away, has one too. The nearest cities also have one in town and one in a nearby mall. Most biggish towns, let alone cities, have a store.............
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As I said! :)
Nothing to moan about though, of course.
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That's the UK. there can't be more than a handful of them in Belgium (and for a really long time, there was only one).
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Aye I know, I was pointing out that their expansion is a good thing. Someone was saying it was a bad way for them to spend their money. I don't think that at all.
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Well, the 8th edition is out and my group is still stucked into the 2nd edition, with some Mordheim and some RPG concepts added... It's still great for "classic" scenarios (Sven, Lichemaster, McDeath) and handles both skirmishes and sieges very well...
We're playing almost weekly since 1986 and we don't feel the need of a "new game system"; as long as we have good friends, high adventure, nice minatures and terrain, a good storyline and some Coca-cola close by the gameboard, it's perfect.
The point is: in all you do, just be sure to HAVE FUN!
:O)
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I was thinking of buying 8th Edition.
A distinct lack of gamers in the local vicinity and irregular work hours mean that a pick-up game in the GW store looks more attractive than ever.
I would at least get to play *something* on a more regular basis.
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very probably i will buy, and never play it.
I like nice rulebooks, nicely printed, full of cool illustrations and containing lots of nicely painted minis pics
GW I think we all will agree they do really nice looking rulebooks.
I got last edition some years ago and never played it (despite i still keep my old orc army) but browsed and partially read some chapters many times.
I'm seriously tempted also for this "release shiny bits" (dice, rule etc) and some of the new imperium citizens miniatures, the two pistols dude and the bear guy rock!
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Okay, I took the jump. My girlfriend and I picked up a box of WHFB models each to start our own armies. Small, mind you, but armies nonetheless.
The rulebook is FAT, you can fit 2 of the old ones inside the new one! lol I'll definately be getting it. That size, full colour and nicely bound in hardback, I shouldn't complain.
Then there's the cool templates, I'll have to be getting them.
I am starting Ogre Kingdoms as I have always liked the models and Hannah has started a Wood Elf army made up of only tree spirits and woodland creatures. It may have one or two elves in it, depends what she likes. :)
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Stil;l on the fence, although I just looked at BlackPowder, 180 pages for £30, so, I suppose, £45 or less for 3 times that, is cheap. I am so tempted by the new bits...............
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When I saw you had replied on the front page I thought "he has bought it" ;)
I still think you will, like when I read your opening post. ;D
Blackpowder is £22.99 on Amazon if you are tempted by both.
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No, I have BP and WHAB and FOW........... The rules books are starting to cost nearlyy as much as the toys.................. Still waivering, though. I keep looking at my armies................ o_o
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All these years of rewrites and they still can not seem to get the rules completed to a fine end......
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All these years of rewrites and they still can not seem to get the rules completed to a fine end......
True, this is their 8th attempt. Most rule books only get a couple of goes, maybe three. I don't think that wargamers would stand for that sort of thing.
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I think they will, because - let's face it - GW knows how to make things look attractive. And that makes people buy things even though they don't need them. Even I am tempted and I haven't played any real Warhammer for at leaast 25 years...
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All these years of rewrites and they still can not seem to get the rules completed to a fine end......
True, this is their 8th attempt.
I think you're missing the point. They do not want a definitive version, they want to keep selling new rulebooks.
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True, this is their 8th attempt.
I think you're missing the point. They do not want a definitive version, they want to keep selling new rulebooks.
Yep, also, most rules sets get altered and tweaked those two or three times. Warhammer has been totally changed in all but the basic mechanic several times. It may carry the same name and setting but there have probably been 3 totally different games in there.
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let me get this right:
they are releasing a new ruleset with all this fancy collectors stuff and NOT a miniatures box?
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let me get this right:
they are releasing a new ruleset with all this fancy collectors stuff and NOT a miniatures box?
Wrong, they WILL be releasing a new miniatures box.
I personally think they should have just taken all the old stock in to replace the rulebooks, or sell it off cheap. Or in the opening week of the rulebook, buy the rulebook get the old box free! lol
There's rumours on Warseer about the new boxed set, it is supposedly called 'Island of Blood', which I think would knock back to Lustria. Regardless of that, I hope it's as good as the last and I hope I can still get the last boxed set, I've been meaning to for quite a while!!! lol
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Lustria sounds interesting
however it says everywhere skaven and high elves
is there a link with pictures?
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is there a link with pictures?
Nope, it was on the GW site for a very short time. It had a blurb and a pic of the cover (just artwork I think) but got pulled very quickly, obviously wasn't supposed to be shown yet.
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Island of Blood
Enter, if you dare, the Warhammer world; it is a strange and dangerous realm, riven with battle, bloodshed and slaughter, twisted beyond sanity by the warping power of Chaos.
The Island of Blood is the new boxed game for Warhammer and is released this September. Packed full of stunning plastic Citadel miniatures and containing all the rules, dice and templates you'll need to play, it's the essential purchase for fans of the Warhammer hobby. Meanwhile, if you like the Battle for Skull Pass boxed game (and who wouldn't with all those Goblins and Dwarfs Dwarfs) then it only seems fair to point out that once the last few remaining copies are they're gone, and they're never coming back! Pick one up while they last.
In August we'll be featuring more information about The Island of Blood here on the website and the full details will be released in September's White Dwarf, so keep your eyes peeled.
supposedly High Elves V Skaven like all the rumors have stated.
skaven.
2 rat ogres
plague mortor
warpfire thrower
clan rats
High elves.
Spear Elves/Sea Guard
Swordmasters
Ellyrion Reavers
and Characters for both
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Surely the 'Island of Blood' will be Ulthan (or however you pronounce/spell it), the Elves island home.
Pictures of inside spreads have shown a mass Dark Elf attack on a High elf enclave so this is probably the theme of the new box set.
Doesn't bother me whatever the theme is, I'm stil getting the rules :D Just think of the eye candy ;D
cheers
James
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I think I well stick with 7th edition for a while longer.
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The local store had a preview copy of the new rulebook that I briefly flipped through yesterday, and it is indeed very pretty. There is at one fold-out picture of a city being stormed that is 4 pages wide (both facing pages fold out).
I think the regular release of new editions of the rules is a marketing thing, sure, but games that see a lot of tournament play are going to see more frequent releases than games that don't. How many editions of Magic: The Gathering are there now?
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This just arrived from GW, obviously unwilling to release details yet.
Incoming! The Island of Blood
The Warhammer world; it is a place riven by battle, where mighty armies clash for glory, honour or the entertainment of Dark Gods. Darkened skies, tortured by cataclysmic magics tear open and rain blood upon the ceaseless combatants and the landscape is wracked by the carnage around it. Trees writhe in mutated agony, lashing out with limb and branch and rivers flow thick with the corpses of the slain. All upon the land are consumed by the unending battle, an age of war in which victory and defeat hang in the balance.
Cast against this macabre tableau fight mighty armies -warriors by their million raise banners of defiance or icons of dismay, taking up arms in the clash for survival. Beleaguered and surrounded, the forces of Order fight desperately to stem the tide of the armies of Destruction. Delighting in the carnage and ruination, the Dark Gods look on.
The Island of Blood is but one battleground upon the face of the Warhammer world, a mystical and dangerous place that has been twisted and mutated by the warping power of Chaos. In ages past the Island of Blood was a battleground upon which armies have bled and died in the ageless battle for supremacy... and they will do so again. Soon.
The Island of Blood is the new boxed game for Warhammer and is released this September. Packed full of stunning plastic Citadel miniatures and containing all the rules, dice and templates you'll need to play, it's the essential purchase for fans of the Warhammer hobby.
Meanwhile, if you like the Battle for Skull Pass boxed game (and who wouldn't with all those Goblins and Dwarfs) then it only seems fair to point out that once the last few remaining copies are gone they're gone, and they're never coming back! Pick one up while stocks last.
In August we'll feature more information about The Island of Blood on games-workshop.com and the full details will be released in September's White Dwarf.
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I'm interested in starting a discussion thread on LoTR and WoTR. What the two rule sets do, and their differences. Also your point is spot on. I'm one of those people who wanted to do the larger battles. Of course now I'm considering going with a 15mm figures. :D
Doomsdave: "That War of the Ring ruleset looked like they were warhammerizing LOTR. I think LOTR was their best game. Then they put it on steroids to sell more figs"
Actually I think it had at least as much to do with people asking for a larger scale game to do the big battles from the movies and books. Giving the people what they want and selling more stuff at the same time? What a concept! :)
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I plan to try to get hold of the little rule booklet that comes in the starter box, maybe ebay it or something. I do like looking at the big chunky GW books, loads of nice pictures(even if 50% are recycled), but I cant afford them at the moment. Also I have no use for elves or skaven. I have a vast orc and goblin army.
I am in the middle of painting a huge orc archer force at the moment. 115 archers! Painted 30.....still a way to go. Im actually excited about it all.
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Well, just put my name down for a copy in my local shop :D :D
Talking to the shop assistant was rather funny. He asked if I played Warhammer and I said I starting playing with Third and still do, slightly bemused look and then asked if that was the one with High Elves and goblins. Que rolling of eyes ::) ::) The slightly disturbing thing was he wasn't that much younger than me ::)
You're right Rob, that double spread is rather pretty, I can see lots of building kits being bought in the near future :D
cheers
James
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They are a lot cheaper at Wayland and Maelstrom, both of whom have about 15% off at the moment...........
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and magic seems to change for the better (even harder, but also much much wilder).
I don't think that's an improvement. Just makes the outcome of a battle more random.... I prefer games where the outcome depends on the tactics and movement of troops, not on a few bad or good rolls.
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I'm interested in starting a discussion thread on LoTR and WoTR. What the two rule sets do, and their differences. Also your point is spot on. I'm one of those people who wanted to do the larger battles. Of course now I'm considering going with a 15mm figures. :D
I'm considering 10 mm - that way I could use Copplestone's and Kallistra's minis along with those from Battle of Five Armies...
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Quote from: P_Clapham on Today at 08:07:38 AM
I'm interested in starting a discussion thread on LoTR and WoTR. What the two rule sets do, and their differences. Also your point is spot on. I'm one of those people who wanted to do the larger battles. Of course now I'm considering going with a 15mm figures.
I'm considering 10 mm - that way I could use Copplestone's and Kallistra's minis along with those from Battle of Five Armies...
Why not just use Warmaster?
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Why not just use Warmaster?
That was going to be my point exactly. Then you can come over here to Vejle Niels, where we have Denmark's highest concentration of Warmaster players (there are at least 6 of us who regularly play warmaster here).
Duncan
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That was going to be my point exactly. Then you can come over here to Vejle Niels, where we have Denmark's highest concentration of Warmaster players (there are at least 6 of us who regularly play warmaster here).
Duncan
Warmaster can easily be played with the same minis - which was also my intention ;)
If I want to recreate some epic battles of Middle-Earth, though, I have the points and army lists ready in WotR.
And I may also play some Song of Armies and Hordes when that comes out :D
All this is, of course, subject to never being realized, if I fail to get some minis painted lol
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They are a lot cheaper at Wayland and Maelstrom, both of whom have about 15% off at the moment...........
Sometimes I just can't help myself :D
cheers
James
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15% of £45 is a lot of money................... :o
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They are a lot cheaper at Wayland and Maelstrom, both of whom have about 15% off at the moment...........
And then, if you use Mantic minis for the bulk of your army, you get the rank-and-file for about 20p a piece... ::)
They even have a 10% discount for as long as England does not lose in the World Cup...
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Sometimes I just can't help myself
Happens to me all the time............. lol
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YOUR EIGHTH EDITION VOUCHER
----------------------------------------------------------
Your 15% off UK RRP discount voucher ends tonight, Monday the 21st of June 2010 at midnight (GMT) and it's your last chance to grab yourself anything from the Warhammer stable - including that new edition and the new Template Set, Counter Set and Battle Magic Deck - at a cheaper price!
It will only work on Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Citadel Hobby items, so please don't expect it to work on anything else! It will not work on Games Workshop Direct items, either.
Apart from the above, the voucher will work on pre-orders and, crucially, you'll still earn Moneyback - although tiered discounts are disabled when using a voucher of course.
Your voucher code is: WARHAMMER-EIGHT
To use this voucher simply register on the webstore, www.maelstromgames.co.uk (if you haven't already), copy and paste the code into the appropriate field in your basket when you have selected the items you want, press 'REDEEM', and the webstore will do the rest. You are not limited to one purchase and, indeed, we would ask you to recommend us to your friends with this voucher!
Remember though that this voucher is intended for the webstore only - it does not apply to any of our auctions or shop inventory items on eBay.
Happy Ordering!
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WELCOME TO THE WAYLAND GAMES NEWSLETTER
Hi everyone and welcome to this week's bumper Wayland Newsletter and boy have we got some news for you!
WARHAMMER FANTASY - 8TH EDITION
It's here folks! Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition is up for pre-order now here. At a whopping 528 pages full of new rules, art and background, and with rumours of it being one of the most intense rules overhauls in years, it's no surprise that 8th edition has garnered a lot of attention amongst gamers (RRP £45.00, Wayland retail at a bargain £38.50). Whilst we'd like to give you some hard facts about the new edition, truth is, no one knows for sure until its in their hands. However, a lot of the rumours point towards a streamlining of the movement system, an overhaul of the magic system, archers firing in two ranks, as well as boosts for fear and terror causing units/monsters.
As ever with a new edition we get a starter box and this one is shaping up to be fantastic. Whilst we know for certain that the forces will be High Elves and Skaven, there are rumours of new plastic silver helms and spearmen, some kind of plastic weapon team for the skaven, and most interestingly of all: a plastic griffon! The set is available to pre-order here with a full list of contents available shortly – rest assured folks you'll know when we know.
If, like me, you've been thinking of getting into fantasy for a while then this is the perfect opportunity. We sell the entire range of fantasy miniatures with battalion sets available from £41.00. So whether Wood Elves or Dark Elves take your fancy, or whether you prefer your undead lead by Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings, or even if the knightly Bretonnians suit you better then the renaissance Empire – Wayland's got you covered. And don't forget the terrain for those armies to clash over!
We thought we'd also remind you all that we carry a wide range of Black Library novels to inspire your armies, as well as the new Citadel catalogue.
GRAB A MANTIC BARGAIN - We've got an exclusive special offer on for Wayland customers, if you buy the new Warhammer rule book, you will get an extra 8% off of any other Mantic figures bought at the same time. Just enter the code MANTIC48 at checkout.
MANTIC GAMES
Don't forget folks that the first of Mantic's new Dwarf kits is nearly here. The Ironclad have been very popular so we thought we'd take this opportunity to remind you all to get your orders in as soon as possible to avoid disappointment, especially with 8th edition on the horizon. Available as either as a set of ten ordinary dwarf troopers, ten dwarves with command section, or twenty dwarves with a command section (for a mere £10.49!), they're an ideal way to gear up for the next edition of Warhammer Fantasy. The Dwarves should be marching into our warehouse on the 25th of June.
Don't forget though, we offer the complete range of Mantic products so if you prefer your armies with pointy ears, how about the Elven battle bundle? The bundle comes with over 100 Elven warriors, as well as their fantastic dragon. Or if you prefer something a little less living, how about the Undead battle bundle which contains a complete undead army, as well as a vampire lord on Pegasus to lead them? Both sets are available for £74.10
We almost forgot to mention Mantic's Undead Revenant Knights which should be with us any day now. Get those pre-orders in early!
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Hmm thinking about all the Fluff photos and painting articles, I'll be patient and pick up a copy next year at a swap meet for some small amount and then add it to my collection of painting guides!
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Well, I priced it up at nearly £60, even with the discount, so I decided to buy Strange Aeons instead.............. o_o
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Well, I priced it up at nearly £60, even with the discount, so I decided to buy Strange Aeons instead.............. o_o
Good call. Fantastic rules. And you need less than 10 minis to start playing lol
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If I can't find a good set of Fanatsy rules, I'll sell my armies, too.
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If I can't find a good set of Fanatsy rules, I'll sell my armies, too.
Use Song of Blades and Heroes ;) Then use the full armies for Song of Armies and Hordes later this year.... :)
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I bought all of Ganesh's stuff just never got around to reading them properly.
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I bought all of Ganesh's stuff just never got around to reading them properly.
Oh, do. Everything will become clear.... ;)
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I have a sci-fi set too, IIRC, so I don't need 40K either?
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I have a sci-fi set too, IIRC, so I don't need 40K either?
Assuming the Sci-Fi set is Mutants and Death Ray Guns, Flying Lead will be better for 'hard sci-fi' when the the sci-fi sourcebooks/expansions come out. MDRG is mainly post-apoc.
I'm going to use my 40K minis for FL and Nuclear Renaissance, mainly.....
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I'd hold onto your minis and get Armies of Arcana instead. It is a great ruleset which fosters good tactical play and already has all the features WHFB 8 was supposed to 'fix' from previous WHFB editions. It'll only set you back about £20 for the rulebook and thats all you'll need. No fancy themed army lists full of fluff PLUS you can use ALL your fantasy and historical minis past and present at the same time.
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Because it doesn't have all the fluff and themed army lists...
Also, because more people play WHFB.
There's nothing to say I couldn't play both...
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Finding a different, better, large scale fantasy rules set but using it to play games set in the Warhammer world strikes me as the best idea.
:)
The background really is the only thing that interests me at all from the evil empire these days (except for titan and battlefleet gothic models), and even some of that, particularly in 40k, is being retconed and messed with these days.
:?
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Agreed. I'd add that using a smaller scale would be a good idea too.
Finding a different, better, large scale fantasy rules set but using it to play games set in the Warhammer world strikes me as the best idea.
:)
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Agreed. I'd add that using a smaller scale would be a good idea too.
Well if you like the Warhammer universe, then I can whole heartedly recommend Warmaster.
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I have Warmaster, too. Along with an Undead, High Elf and republican Roman armies (for WMA)
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I know a few people that have played Warhammer using Warmaster figures. It let them play games on their desks during lunch hour etc. They kept the ranks seperate in a small movement tray and used counters to track wounds for a rank until it got removed. Actually worked quite well.
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WELCOME TO THE WAYLAND GAMES NEWSLETTER
Hi Everyone and welcome to this week's Wayland Newsletter.
WARHAMMER FANTASY - 8TH EDITION
We are proud to announce that 8th edition pre-orders are now available from our website in five languages: English, German, Spanish, Italian and French. At a whopping 528 pages long this full colour rulebook isn't just a rulebook but a comprehensive gamers tool including scenarios, campaign ideas, a background to the Warhammer world and it's races – everything you could ever want or need to know about the world of fantasy. In addition to the rulebook, we also have the counter set and the template set available to pre-order, along with the brand new battle magic set. All these items will be dispatched the day we get hold of them so be sure to get those pre-orders in now to avoid disappointment.
Don't forget we currently have an eight percent discount on the ANY Mantic product when you pre-order the new Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook (in any language). Just enter code MANTIC48 at the check out to save even more off those big army bundles, and it gets even better because next week is going to be a Mantic special....
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The rules for warmaster never really grabbed me sadly, though truthfully I probably didn't give it as much of a go as I should have as back then I had numerous games on the go already and liked larger models.
Of all the things I've been hearing about 8th edition (the recent most likely accurate stuff) the main killer for me has been the simplifying and speeding up of movement and terrain. While I do know some players really disliked the old movement system, it tended to be the longest phase, it is really what made the game tactical.
All this talk of premeasuring, random charge ranges...etc. While more easily accessable takes a way a big chunk of the tactical side of the game.
The new magic systems, combat rules and such being a bit more sensible and streamlined is okay, but it just all feels like it's moving towards 40k Fantasy edition. I'm sure it will be fun, but just not quite enough tactical depth for me.
So sadly (or perhaps gladly) I don't think the release of 8th will see me going back to the Evil Empire.
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Of all the things I've been hearing about 8th edition (the recent most likely accurate stuff) the main killer for me has been the simplifying and speeding up of movement and terrain. While I do know some players really disliked the old movement system, it tended to be the longest phase, it is really what made the game tactical.
All this talk of premeasuring, random charge ranges...etc. While more easily accessable takes a way a big chunk of the tactical side of the game.
I couldn't disagree more. Having read the parts of the book I wanted to get a good look at I feel there are quite a few variables that will really annoy tournament players, but given that I dislike the tournament atmosphere immensely, that doesn't bother me ;)
With specific regards to the premeasuring and charge ranges etc I'd say it adds tactical flexibility. Premeasuring is irrelevant with variable charges and no guess range weaponry anyway. Also given that anyone who plays regularly is usually able to 'guess' the ranges pretty damned accurately it only ever really hurt the newer players (anyone who can't get that right generally doesn't use those weapons). With the charge distances, if we take a 'standard' movement of 4", then they'll charge 4 + 2d6", giving them a minimum charge range of 6". The previous charge range of 8" is also very likely, so you're not losing out there. Over that distance however the odds start to become a little riskier, yes the average distance is 11" but anyone who plays dice games knows that in reality that doesn't mean a damn. So, you can charge the distance you've been able to charge before pretty reliably but you now gain the option of potentially charging further, perhaps a lot further, however if you do so you run the risk of over extending and failing the charge with potentially disastrous results. That level of risk management adds to the tactical game in my opinion.
My gripe with the game is that archers etc still need to be strung out in lines to be of any use. It's irritating for two reasons, it's not how archers were used in battle and strings of models just get in the way on the tabletop. They should have just taken the WAB archer rule and inserted it, it works much better and isn't really any more effective.
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Archers in a single line mean they block LOS for units behind them, block charges by units behind them also. They really do not want to go back to the days of the wood elf archery armies me thinks.
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Not quite my cup of Tea. I'm more into the middle earth setting.
Well if you like the Warhammer universe, then I can whole heartedly recommend Warmaster.
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You do make a lot of good points Dewbakuk, I guess it's just down to my personal experience that's making me think this way.
While the random charge thing does add the option to "take a risk" and go for a long charge my issue (bred mostly from being a very long time Orc and Gobbo player) is that anything based on a dice roll needs to be backed up with a plan B. So to me it effectivly reduces charge ranges as I'd want to be within 6" and make sure I get the charge than be 7" away and get a snake eyes. Certainly bred from the Greenskin problem of Animosity, the dice will always go against you when you need it more often than they should.
::)
Going with 40k esq "true line of sight" is a nonsense aswell (just as it was when brought into 40k). Terrain made for miniature games HAS to be built to allow the players to actually place their models inside it, hence gaps are needed. Now if you want to make a terrain piece that represents a dense patch of trees for example you need to build a solid wall of sight blocking trees, with a hole in the center to place models.
This isn't the final nail in the coffin yet, maybe, just maybe, the new Orc and Goblin and Wood Elf books will be fun enough to tempt me back into the game. After the disappointment of the new Beastman book though I'm not holding my breath.
:)
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Going with 40k esq "true line of sight" is a nonsense aswell (just as it was when brought into 40k). Terrain made for miniature games HAS to be built to allow the players to actually place their models inside it, hence gaps are needed. Now if you want to make a terrain piece that represents a dense patch of trees for example you need to build a solid wall of sight blocking trees, with a hole in the center to place models.
True line of sight is great, for skirmish games. 40K is no longer a skirmish game, it's "blob vs. blob". That's unfortunate, and part of the reason I no longer enjoy playing the actual miniatures game (although I love the background!).
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Not quite my cup of Tea. I'm more into the middle earth setting.
Battle of 5 Armies IS Warmaster in ME. More or less.
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Going with 40k esq "true line of sight" is a nonsense aswell (just as it was when brought into 40k). Terrain made for miniature games HAS to be built to allow the players to actually place their models inside it, hence gaps are needed. Now if you want to make a terrain piece that represents a dense patch of trees for example you need to build a solid wall of sight blocking trees, with a hole in the center to place models.
I agree on this to a degree, For 'real' skirmish games without coherency rules, true line of sight can be fun, awarding, and challenging, as you let your CC models jump from cover to cover to get into charge range of that sniping enemy model, while in games with more units and unit coherency, terrain has to me more schematic to be of any use tactically.
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I should have picked that up when I had the chance.
Battle of 5 Armies IS Warmaster in ME. More or less.
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I should have picked that up when I had the chance.
Same here - it is still available from Specialist Games, though?
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i'm pretty sure it Battle of five armies is still available, otherwise it must come up on ebay quite often.
Duncan
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It's available, but all the cool metal models were scrapped.
I really wanted to get into it.
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Archers in a single line mean they block LOS for units behind them, block charges by units behind them also. They really do not want to go back to the days of the wood elf archery armies me thinks.
Probably not, but with the Wood Elves they have so many skirmish/cavalry archer options with super bows that 'block' archery units wouldn't be much of an issue anyway. In fact it might even mean that people would start to use more of their standard archers and less of the specialists, letting them put in other units.
the dice will always go against you when you need it more often than they should.
::)
Going with 40k esq "true line of sight" is a nonsense aswell (just as it was when brought into 40k). Terrain made for miniature games HAS to be built to allow the players to actually place their models inside it, hence gaps are needed. Now if you want to make a terrain piece that represents a dense patch of trees for example you need to build a solid wall of sight blocking trees, with a hole in the center to place models.
Oh yeah, rolling that snake eyes is going to happen, probably on your most important charge roll too :) But that'll be the exeption rather than the rule.
I agree with the line of sight through terrain thing though. Very silly for a game like Warhammer, in no way should a cannon be able to 'snipe' through a wooded area and hit anything but trees! However a while back I deliberately made some 'loose' terrain that can be spread around as long grass. It doesn't need to effect movement etc at all, but it's all tall/dense enough to block line of sight. We've used it spread around in clumps as areas of grass and we've also used it around the edges of woods/swamps to that line of sight through that terrain is blocked.
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It's available, but all the cool metal models were scrapped.
I bought it all when it came out, the rules are basically Warmaster 1.5. I did look at Copplestone to extend the range, but they are nearer 12 mm......
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However a while back I deliberately made some 'loose' terrain that can be spread around as long grass. It doesn't need to effect movement etc at all, but it's all tall/dense enough to block line of sight. We've used it spread around in clumps as areas of grass and we've also used it around the edges of woods/swamps to that line of sight through that terrain is blocked.
Its all still up at my unit though! Ive been using it in the images of the orcs, I may have to stea it from you (joke).
I hear archers can fire in 2 ranks now though. This will be good for deployment of my army. 115 orc archers, 8 balista, 2 giants and 4 wizards.
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Yep, they do indeed fire in two ranks.
It had slipped my mind that you had most of that terrain. Not an issue as currently I'm mostly playing Warmachine at Chimera in Beeston and therefore using their boards. Although ironically, quite a bit of their scenery is my old stuff as the person I donated it too has donated it to the shop :P
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True, this is their 8th attempt.
I think you're missing the point. They do not want a definitive version, they want to keep selling new rulebooks.
wrong, they don't get too much benefit from rulebook sales, I can assure you that point. They want to keep selling miniatures, their real business, a definitive edition in long term sales means definitive armies, and so, lower long term miniature sales. That's why the rulebook and army books will never have a definitive version.
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wrong, they don't get too much benefit from rulebook sales, I can assure you that point. They want to keep selling miniatures, their real business, a definitive edition in long term sales means definitive armies, and so, lower long term miniature sales. That's why the rulebook and army books will never have a definitive version.
Yes, that was the next step in the reasoning that I didn't elaborate further on. I agree.
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After the former Wood Elf player in me woke up for a bit I went looking specifically for confirmed rumors on the two most important things to that army...skirmishers and terrain.
Sadly it seems Woodsies will take the biggest instant kick in the groin from the immediate changes.
Skirmishers are a "fixed" formation all models 0.5" away from each other, though they can reform for free on the move so they are flexible. The real issues come from changes to other rules that effect how skirmishers were used.
Marchblocking can now be ignored on a successful Ld test. A unit which fails a charge, or wins a round of combat can reform if it passes a Ld test in the remaining moves phase, which makes baiting pretty useless against a lot of armies.
The Terrain changes are even worse than I first thought, while true line of sight is bad apparantly not only does terrain hardly block sight (unless it's a high wall) but it doesn't even reduce movement now. Though certain units make a "dangerous terrain test" ala 40k, roll a 1 and the model dies.
:?
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The Terrain changes are even worse than I first thought, while true line of sight is bad apparantly not only does terrain hardly block sight (unless it's a high wall) but it doesn't even reduce movement now. Though certain units make a "dangerous terrain test" ala 40k, roll a 1 and the model dies.
:?
I've seen lots of Warhammer tables with only a few pieces of terrain scattered along the edges... lol
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After the former Wood Elf player in me woke up for a bit I went looking specifically for confirmed rumors on the two most important things to that army...skirmishers and terrain.
Sadly it seems Woodsies will take the biggest instant kick in the groin from the immediate changes.
Skirmishers are a "fixed" formation all models 0.5" away from each other, though they can reform for free on the move so they are flexible. The real issues come from changes to other rules that effect how skirmishers were used.
Marchblocking can now be ignored on a successful Ld test. A unit which fails a charge, or wins a round of combat can reform if it passes a Ld test in the remaining moves phase, which makes baiting pretty useless against a lot of armies.
The Terrain changes are even worse than I first thought, while true line of sight is bad apparantly not only does terrain hardly block sight (unless it's a high wall) but it doesn't even reduce movement now. Though certain units make a "dangerous terrain test" ala 40k, roll a 1 and the model dies.
:?
hmmmm, definately not convinced after reading this! SOBH here I come!
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Can't comment on the terrain movement, I didn't read that bit of the book. The thing that leaped out at me from the terrain is the option of having 'fantasy' terrain on the board. Of the two examples that I can think of one is a wizards tower, which must be represented by a proper tower, which allows a wizard within it to have access to all the spells in their list, not just the ones they rolled. The other is a Wyld wood type piece where units moving through it have to roll on a chart to see what happens to them, they range from fey creatures appearing to give them magic items, to being led into the deep woods by sprites and never seen again (remove unit from board). Clearly these are unlikely to appear in tournament play but for casual games they could be cool and for campaigns could be fantastic :D
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I like the themed terrain idea :D Gets the juices flowing (as it were ;D )
cheers
James
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I'm a little bit reticent on the fantasy terrain front - there's only a one-in-six chance the river i made is actually just a river?
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I'm a little bit reticent on the fantasy terrain front - there's only a one-in-six chance the river i made is actually just a river?
No, it's just a river unless you want to use the theme terrain rules.
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Also, if you are using a GM - which will be encouraged, then it is up to the GM.
I have not only pre ordered the book and I anticipate it's arrival, but I picked up the other bits and bobs (Dice set, Magic Cards, new templates)...
My girlfriend and I have gotten very much into the 'spirit' of the game. She has been reading the wood elf background and is inspired by it, I am collecting the army I wanted to collect ever since they came out, the Ogre kingdoms.
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I'll be picking my copy up from the local on Saturday :D And hopefully playing a game on Monday :D :D
cheers
James
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I am trying to resist, but I know the shiny newnness will overcome my reserve.
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Give in now. Buy the collectors stuff (not the ruddy collectors book though, £30 for a different cover and some funny flappy bookmarks?), I only *just* had enough, but my girlfriend okayed it because 'it might be worth something' in the future! :D
Nah, the ogres are coming along nicely and the new rules make them quite a playable army, so I don't have to worry about the alleged 'rules creep' they apparently suffer from.
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(not the ruddy collectors book though, £30 for a different cover and some funny flappy bookmarks?)
Sold out now apparently.
That's a nice £26,000 heading towards GW HQ ::)
cheers
James
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...and it has a shelf life of two years................. >:D
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...and it has a shelf life of two years................. >:D
That is a gross exaggeration! It has a shelf life of 4 years............ hmmmm......
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4................. Damn, it's worth while then.......... :-*
Taking it to club would be like wearing bling though...............
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Heh, you could go the whole hog and pick up the old* 'Bulldog Buckles' Warhammer badges/belt buckles/keyrings etc to really make a statement lol
*I'm assuming that kind of stuff isn't still made and sold by GW? Can't be bothered to go check ::)
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I did get the free pendant with the Mark of Chaos game, and I do have a few GW teeshirts..................... :o
(Closes door to closet behind me) :D
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Hey I am all for playing the old editions. 3d anyone? Bring back the free Hack!
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"Free hack!"
Don't you know there's a world recession. There's no such thing as a free hack, anymore! You and your 20th century ways.......... lol
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Yeah back to the 80's
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Yeah but now instead of a free hack as a unit runs or you catch them you get a free destroy entire unit if you catch them.
3rd edition was great if a bit clunky, 4th stripped it down, altered the magic and made heroes even more important. I guess 6th was a needed redress and everything since has been variations ion its theme. I understated this latest one is another big change.
I'm still going for house ruled 3rd (take the good simplifications from 4th) though it's been a while since I warhammered anyway.
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I have to agree, the rules are a lot smoother and easier to recall in your head. Less checking through books and tables.
I have 3rd ed in Hardback and Softback, I wouldn't sell them for the world. Furthermore, I have the Warhammer Armies book that went with it. Now that is a prize in my collection. I love the old artwork in it.
This new book has really worked in getting my creative side out with GW products. It's a little more 'involved' than some other things.
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"Free hack!"
Don't you know there's a world recession. There's no such thing as a free hack, anymore! You and your 20th century ways.......... lol
Actually, there is... Ganesha's free webzine/ezine is called... 'Free Hack'.... lol
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Actually, there is... Ganesha's free webzine/ezine is called... 'Free Hack'....
Touche! :o ...and a lovely magazine. :D
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In their typical fashion, in the next white dwarf will be the New figure with a page and a half of special rules for the new rule book, and the new information will conflict with a couple of rules, to be sorted out by each player.... which is probably the biggest rub I had when I was doing tournament play back when. Nearly every issue introduced a new unit or figure with lots of rules that never really seemed to be tested very well before release.
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In their typical fashion, in the next white dwarf will be the New figure with a page and a half of special rules for the new rule book, and the new information will conflict with a couple of rules, to be sorted out by each player.... which is probably the biggest rub I had when I was doing tournament play back when. Nearly every issue introduced a new unit or figure with lots of rules that never really seemed to be tested very well before release.
Of course... if you can get the players squabbling about how the rules are to be interpreted, they'll never get to the point where they realize, and aqree, that they are utter rubbish. :D
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rob alderman
I agree the army lists for 3d edition were great. That was when one book bought all the armies, allies, mercenaries etc.
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Yeah, goblins on pigs with pikes. You certainly don't get that in the new army lists lol I want my halberd wielding nuns back aswell :D
cheers
James
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Awesome army lists, indeed.
I like the old Slann one. I really want to do a modern version.
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.....and Dwarf mages and speardwarves......
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Awesome army lists, indeed.
I like the old Slann one. I really want to do a modern version.
But where to get figures from ??? Apart from paying through the nose for the old GW ones ::)
I did like the lobotomised slaves in that list :D
cheers
James
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I have sculpted a lot of the Todoroni range for Flintloque. The Toadmen. So shouldn't be too hard!
I am tempted to ask AA if I can do some Toadmen for their fantasy skirmish game 'Darkestorme'. Their 15mm line has one toadman pose 'Toadec Spawn', not only do I want to add to the 15mm range, but doing a 28mm version alongside, would be awesome.
In the meantime, there is always scope with the Eureka miniatures ones. Slaves, why not use converted Chaos Marauders?
I'd use Slann as Lizardmen, Lizardmen as Old Ones, Human Slaves as Skinks (?) and Troglodytes as Kroxigor.
Edit: I just recieved the new rulebook this morning, spent 2 hours going through it quickly (didn't actually read any of it!), it looks awesome. :)
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Edit: I just recieved the new rulebook this morning, spent 2 hours going through it quickly (didn't actually read any of it!), it looks awesome. :)
Oh you bugger :-[ ;)
cheers
James
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I'd use Slann as Lizardmen, Lizardmen as Old Ones, Human Slaves as Skinks (?) and Troglodytes as Kroxigor.
lol I have an old slann army and I currently use Lizard men plus spawning for the various slann warrior casts. I use the skink entry for my jungle braves and scouts. The Trogs would make good Kroxigo if I had any. Human slaves though are slow and crap so Skinks isn't a good fit.
I've yet to meet anyone who's seen it that doesn't think Warhammer Armies is the best supplement ever for Warhammer.
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Oh you bugger :-[ ;)
cheers
James
Only on Thursdays. ;)
lol I have an old slann army and I currently use Lizard men plus spawning for the various slann warrior casts. I use the skink entry for my jungle braves and scouts. The Trogs would make good Kroxigo if I had any. Human slaves though are slow and crap so Skinks isn't a good fit.
I've yet to meet anyone who's seen it that doesn't think Warhammer Armies is the best supplement ever for Warhammer.
Awesome, I'd love to see it! Not sure how you could fit Human Slaves into it then really.
I guess I really like the Warhammer Armies book just because of how different it is to the new stuff. I have seen loads of the modern stuff and there is precious little of the old stuff.
I will be jumping with joy if and when the Eastern parts of the Warhammer World fill out a bit more. They are on the map and mentioned in various snippets of background, so one can hope! :)
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One advantage of playing empire is the human race never disappears from the warhammer world, sure the Norse are an indangered species as are the nipponese but empire humans are always there. The figures also can be used in historical games/armies. I have raided my empire collection to field, pirate armies, conquistidors, 100 years war, cossack wars (kislevites) etc. The army lists over the years have frequently altered exactly what I can bring and how many, but never such that I can't keep fielding armies. Of Course it helps that my painted empire is a little over 850 figures, not counting Norse/Vikings.
I still miss 3d edition armies for their size and flexibility. Of course for playablitiy I use "rules that shall not me named."
I got the white dwarf that promos the rules and they do look good. I thought it was funny that there are now magic spell cards, much like 4th edition.
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Of course for playablitiy I use "rules that shall not me named."
Which are?
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Warhammer armis was a great book, I loved the illustrations for the unit entries.
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Warhammer armis was a great book, I loved the illustrations for the unit entries.
Same guy who did the Original Flintloque artwork, dontcha know? :)
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The rules that shall not be named are .......TACTICA, Which years ago I added a fantasy element and called them Ylrac. But just using Empire figures on both sides and playing the straight historical fights, say Swiss vs Imperialists, is a lot of fun. Especially if you increase the army sizes, to say all the figures you own.
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Well, I went into see it all today, luckily I wasn't stopped, as usual, by one of the eager staff, so I wasn't lured into buying it straight away. It looks good and the reports are good. I even liked the new widget, not sure I need the templates or measuring stick. So, will part with readies at Maelstrom, I think, as I won't be at a show until Newbury.......... ::)
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Yup, good man. The templates aren't necessary at all.
Another nice point on the rules. They are mostly laid out like this:
Title of specific rule i.e. 'Channelling Power Dice'
A simple description of how the rule works, just to jog your memory if you are already familiar with the previous set of rules
In normal text, a detailed and broken down description which looks like it has been very carefully written. A lot of the new rulebook looks like it is there to slap power-gamers wrists!
In italics, there is usually an example
If required, there is also a diagram.
Bloody excellent I thought. I hate looking through a rulebook for a rule and finding I have to read a double page spread just to find one small thing!!!!
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Got mine today :D
Slightly dissapointed in the fact that there weren't really any new terrain pictures that haven't already been seen in one form or another, but hey, there you go :)
I agree woth Rob on the rules though. As a person who really doesn't like reading them ::) they are laid out rather well and I don't think it'll tax me too much to reference what we're looking for.
Ill certainly be reading it in the bath tonight ;D
cheers
James
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they are laid out rather well and I don't think it'll tax me too much to reference what we're looking for.
Well, they'd better be. This is their 8th attempt.....
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Just from reading the white dwarf revied, they look to encourage BIG units which is great. I don't know but it still looks like it encourages super characters though.
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Just from reading the white dwarf revied, they look to encourage BIG units which is great. I don't know but it still looks like it encourages super characters though.
Of course it does = buy more minis + buy all our exorbitantly expensive characters.....
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Looked at the prices for the heroic characters, I think we need a new word for "exorbitantly" , something bigger... Love the mini's, but wow.
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Of course it does = buy more minis + buy all our exorbitantly expensive characters.....
Big units doesn't mean more miniatures necessarily. It means more unit fillers. In fact, they even suggest it themselves. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=11500017a
I have been considering some unit fillers for my armies. Idols of Gork (or possibly Mork) in my Goblin regiments, Ogre slave masters in my Gnoblar units and giant oathstones in my Dwarf regiments.
Big units make the game look more 'warhammer'. 3rd edition units were MASSIVE and I think this is important. You can now add more character and USE more of the stuff you have in normal games. i.e. more rare choices like Giants.
Special characters are still limited, normal characters are easier to add to the army as well and yes, they may be just as important as they always were but I think big units really make all the difference now.
Now shut up and play nice. ;D
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I don't see any fewer minis used in there???
And you're not going to get me to quit commenting on GW's tricks to get people to spend more and more on a game that has always been cumbersome, slow, and filled with rules contradictions (not necessarily the rulebook itself, but as soon as the varoious armybooks start to emerge...)..... :P
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I don't see any fewer minis used in there???
But do you see any more? The idea is to use fewer but larger units. Besides it encourages play that's closer to the game's background.
Love the mini's, but wow.
Every day I see new figures released at prices that meet or exceed GW prices and rarely ever see those companies get the same kind of crap GW does. Besides I wish gamers would stop whining about prices period, just budget your games and freaking live with it already.
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wolfgangbrooks,
I agree with Alfrik, GW figures are espensive. While some figures are equally expensive to GW that does not mean GW figs are not expensive. They more then anyone have the benefit of economy of scale and should have the cheapest figures. Instead there are a number of companies that make very nice figures cheaper.
I know Alfrik, he has more figures then most, even more then me which is saying alot. His home is a virtual shrine to Wargaming. His concern about cost is not so much for himself, but for others.
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Well, bought the rules. I already have 3 armies, I do not expect to buy more figures, may have to put a few proxies in some middle ranks and double up some units. Did not buy any of the new fluff when Dark Elves was released last year. Mantic are busy pushing their ranges and there are any number of alternatives, for Empire buy warlord's ECW, Bretonnians equals 100 Years War.
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Well, bought the rules.
I knew you'd cave :D
It's pretty isn't it ;)
cheers
James
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"His concern about cost is not so much for himself, but for others. "
To start with, I only have your word for that. Not saying necessarily he's a cheap bastard, but that vein pulses thick in wargamers and I find the constant whinging more than annoying.
Second, figures are underpriced. You just have to be on the selling side to know that the margin between a manufacturer's costs and what people in this hobby expect to pay is incredibly slim. This has all kinds of ramifications, usually being that the people who want to turn their hobby into a business and do all kinds of cool things with it simply can't make a go of it because they can't make expenses AND expand. This is a topic that probably deserves a big ol' thread on it's own. But I swear if someone tries to trot out that old internet chestnut about "If they really love the hobby then they shouldn't care about money and just be happy someone's enjoying their stuff" I will find a way to reach into the internet and punch them. You wouldn't let someone shortchange you for the labor you do at your job right?
Third GW does alot with the money; supporting a magazine (And complain all you want about how it's not giving you free army lists every issue like it used to or whatever your beef with White Dwarf is, it's miles better than most wargaming mags I've read.), customer support center, warehouse, manufacturing complex, dozens of stores, and even a experimental design division! Who else does that? Their next biggest competitor in miniature gaming doesn't even come close.
How many careers have they started that are now huge influences on the industry just because they had the money to spread the net wide and support all kinds of talent ? It seems like the people behind half the companies that are huge right now are GW alumni.
You're not going to be able to do that only charging $2 USD a figure when it's costing you half that to make the figure.
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My observation that the current price of Heroic figures, not their rank and file, is very Steep is based on buying their products for over 20 years.
Just for the record, I have 4 separate and complete chaos armies, skaven, dark dwarf and most of a slann army as well as epic armies for marines, orcs and eldar with titans, plus a 40k orc army over 150 figures with special characters etc. I also have 4 different rule sets, a pile of white dwarf issues, 5 Blood Bowel teams, 2 Man-o-war fleets and rules plus 3 sets of mighty empires sets. Not to count the box full of left over figs and bits of GW products, plastics and what have you, which does not include any of the masses of ancients armies for WRG, FR! etc etc etc that have nothing to do with GW products, just that I am diversified now.
So having supported them for so long, I now find little in their product line that I don't have earlier versions that tempts me to purchase do to their totally free to price prices.
Just my 2 cents.
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My observation that the current price of Heroic figures, not their rank and file, is very Steep is based on buying their products for over 20 years.
I don't see how that's exactly relevant. You've been buying their stuff a long time, good for you. Alot has changed in the last couple of decades and their cost for producing those highly detailed metal characters is now very different than their costs for rank and file troopers.
In fact in a couple of years the way they are going the metal casting line will be doing only characters and special projects. A specialist industrial line working exclusively on relatively small-run products will get a little expensive. And again, compare their products to other manufacturer's of comparable size, style, and quality and their characters are still competitively priced.
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Guys this is quickly spiralling out of control.
I'm more interested in seeing what people ARE doing rather than what people ARE NOT.
I don't go into other areas and post 'that game sucks', I just don't post.
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I only ordered yesterday, so won't hold it for a few days, the 11% discount from Maelstrom was too tempting.
GW sales are higher than you think, if you take in the other companies that sell their stuff, especially at a discount. Like Alfrik I have nearly all of their games, I have, unlike wolfgangbrooks noticed their figures rocketing. This is not a small company with a small output that sells low numbers, the overall feel of the market, including plastics, is a general fall in prices.
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Yeah Rob alderman is right, we are talking about the rules not the price of figs.
I too own a huge empire army and will have no problem fielding large units.
So educate me/us. What is the advantage of a Horde unit?
What about a 10 figure wide unit. Will all the figs in the front row get to fight?
What is the step up rule, will a unit get to fight even if its front rank gets killed?
Those changes would go along way to fixing some of my concerns about prior sets.
Is there a counter charge or some other charge rule?
Do we use the same army books but with the new limits until the new lists come out?
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When GW bring out a set of rules it is a fair point to discuss the cost and if it is worth it no? I don't dislike GW at all, I still collect loads of their stuff (off ebay) these days though I get considerably less bang from my buck if I buy new stuff. Alfrik is merely making the point that you get a lot less value for your money these days and that would include considerations of inflation.
Oh and wolfgangbrooks, plenty of people do make a go of it with their own figure lines and products. Just look at Ramshackle Games, Otherworld, ebob, redbox, TooFatLardies, SoBH oh the list is endless new successful companies start all the time. If you fail because you cannot meet your customers expectations then that is capitalism working for you, gamers don't owe any manufacturer a living.
I'll probably get sucked into buying this in a year or so's time. I look forward to hearing if this is truly different.
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But do you see any more? The idea is to use fewer but larger units. Besides it encourages play that's closer to the game's background.
What I meant was, I do not see fewer minis used to make a unit; I don't see a point in making 'unit fillers' that take away 4 standard minis, but use 4 minis from another sets (including the even more expensive metal ones). No point at all. Besides that it makes the units even expensiver to field, another 'clever' ploy.
As to the 'fewer, but larger units': Yay, even less tactics! Why even bother playing the game if it creeps towards just having 2 or 3 large blocks of minis that are essentially just there to allow for fielding a handful of extremely powerful characters???
I like wargames where the troops, and how you maneouvre them around, actually have an influence on the outcome.
I cannot grasp why so many gamers WILL not see that GW rulesets are not intended to make gaming enjoyable for their customers (GW closing down their official forum because too many of their core customers were complaining about the rules is a sterling example of this), but only a means to make people buy more of their miniatures - that are priced, not according to cost, but according to a fictive value determined by their ponts cost in the game.
I do not say it is wrong of them from a business perspective, as long as they can find people... erm... willing to pay.
I keep hearing the argument, that other companies also sell expensive minis. Yes they do. And often get penalized to do so (see Rackham, Heartbreaker, and undoubtedly others for reference).
Small companies like Hasslefree and other small independent make extremely high quality minis, probably more or less on demand, and do not have the returns to scale of a manufacturing giant like GW, thus they have to charge prices that border on GW prices.
GW should be able to make plastics at the same prices that others do. Still when someone new comes to the market with prices 1/4 or less, but maybe a slightly lower degree of quality, they are subject of public lynching, even if they produce exactly what the customers demand.
And I resent being accused of giving someone 'crap'. My opinions are formed on many years of experience, including having been manager of a games store in the 90's (not owned by me) where I had access to the annual reports of GW, as well as on my knowledge of business economics and marketing (in which I hold a Master's degree with a major in Marketing).
And this DOES have something to do with the rules.
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And again, compare their products to other manufacturer's of comparable size, style, and quality and their characters are still competitively priced.
I'd like to see some examples of that??
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"What is the advantage of a Horde unit? What about a 10 figure wide unit. Will all the figs in the front row get to fight?"
The main one is that units get to fight with an extra rank. So a unit with spears will get to fight three ranks deep. And I think monsters get to fight from the second row with up to 3 attacks even without using the horde rules.
"What is the step up rule, will a unit get to fight even if its front rank gets killed?"
Yes, all casualties are now taken from the back of the unit. So everyone in the front rank gets to fight.
"Is there a counter charge or some other charge rule?"
Only stand and shoot, hold, and flee. And if multiple units charge you can announce which reaction you're doing to which.
"Do we use the same army books but with the new limits until the new lists come out?"
As I understand it, yes. There are faqs for the army books in the new edition on the GW website. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2
If you fail because you cannot meet your customers expectations then that is capitalism working for you, gamers don't owe any manufacturer a living.
And manufacturers don't owe gamer's anything either. Your point? And for every example you mention I can think of several that fail or stagnate and most people are only able to do it as a sideline. Usually one that gives back very little. If capitalism was as cut and dried as you seem to think it is those people would be doing alot better. However it has less to do with what they can offer and more the whims and fads of the consumer base.
I'd like to see some examples of that??
You want the long list or the short list? :) Probably the best example is Privateer Press since they use practically the same business model as GW, on a model per model basis they are more expensive. Remember the Vampire Counts calvary boxed set that everyone was having fits over because it was $90 USD for five character level models? PP's basic cavalry is $20 a figure. And that's not the only example of course.
Gamezone miniatures is another good one since they basically are the Spanish GW model for model. Look them up sometime. How about Merc Minis? $10 USD for each rank and file. Corvus Belli Infinity is another good one: $12-20 USD average for heavy weapons figs and characters. The previously mention Red Box Games is about $10 a figure for unit champion level figures. I can go on.
Also I'm not going to argue rules with you since you seem dead set against allowing that any set of rules GW makes could make is anything other than a conspiracy against wallets.
"I keep hearing the argument, that other companies also sell expensive minis. Yes they do. And often get penalized to do so "
My argument is that they catch more flak for it than anyone else. As for Rackham; It's my understanding that most complaints against them are that they dropped their metal line. Which was more expensive per figure than their new prepaints.
"Still when someone new comes to the market with prices 1/4 or less, but maybe a slightly lower degree of quality, they are subject of public lynching, even if they produce exactly what the customers demand."
Quite the opposite in my experience, unless you're talking about these boards in which case I think it was a bias against an American company back when the board was mostly Brits and Germans. :) All I've heard from customers who look at the plastics is praise for the sculpting. However, most of our customers seem to prefer single part metal models for ease of assembly.
"And I resent being accused of giving someone 'crap'. My opinions are formed on many years of experience,"
So are mine. :) I used to be an innocent until we started the business... at least it's not quite as bad as regular retail.
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And manufacturers don't owe gamer's anything either. Your point? And for every example you mention I can think of several that fail or stagnate and most people are only able to do it as a sideline. Usually one that gives back very little. If capitalism was as cut and dried as you seem to think it is those people would be doing alot better. However it has less to do with what they can offer and more the whims and fads of the consumer base.
Umm yes, yes they do lol. You owe them your livelihood for example....
If you want to make money you give the consumer exactly what they want. If you have started and failed in this business, with that attitude, it's no wonder you sound so bitter. If your product is good, your price fair and you meet customer expectations you'll do very well, many small companies prove this every day. If your a new company with no name, exceeding expectations is probably a good thing.
GW do this, they can get away with charging what would be way too much for a relatively poor product because they offer other things than just the mini and rules to their market. The main thing being accessibility, brand recognition and market saturation. Without this they wouldn't get away with selling what they do now for the price they charge. As it is most people I know who buy do so heavily discounted in, "Sales", online.
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Well, I just can't wait to get my 70 man strong unit of Leopolds Leopard Company Pikemen on the table :D
cheers
James
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Just popping my head over the parapet here regarding unit fillers.
GW used four miniatures to a base for their examples. Fair play to them, they can do whatever they want with the vast range of toys within striking distance. But it doesn't look that hard to make a unit filler with just one model. Here's an example from the Drinking And Modelling blog
http://drinkinandmodelin.blogspot.com/2009/11/progress-report-good-news-bad-news.html (http://drinkinandmodelin.blogspot.com/2009/11/progress-report-good-news-bad-news.html)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8L7_ydYa4BY/SwlhXEMHgbI/AAAAAAAAAiM/u43epC1AntU/s1600/unit_filler_wip.jpg)
Here's a thread on unit fillers from the Warhammer Empire forum. Most of them have less than four miniatures to a 40mm base.
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30647.0 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30647.0)
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I can't even be bothered to read this. ::)
Tacgnol, that's a nice unit filler!!! There's loads of great opportunities there now.
Jimbibbly, 70 Leopolds Pikemen?!!! I'd love to see that!
Yeah Rob alderman is right, we are talking about the rules not the price of figs.
I too own a huge empire army and will have no problem fielding large units.
So educate me/us. What is the advantage of a Horde unit?
What about a 10 figure wide unit. Will all the figs in the front row get to fight?
What is the step up rule, will a unit get to fight even if its front rank gets killed?
Those changes would go along way to fixing some of my concerns about prior sets.
Is there a counter charge or some other charge rule?
Do we use the same army books but with the new limits until the new lists come out?
Thankyou.
Hordes get some nice advantages. The whole front rank fights, the second rank all get one attack. The third rank get attacks if they have spears.
They are very hard to take down, as they always have been.
As for the other questions, I don't know, and I am only part of the way through the rules section. I have yet to see the full advantage.
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You want the long list or the short list? :) Probably the best example is Privateer Press since they use practically the same business model as GW, on a model per model basis they are more expensive. Remember the Vampire Counts calvary boxed set that everyone was having fits over because it was $90 USD for five character level models? PP's basic cavalry is $20 a figure. And that's not the only example of course.
I cannot speak for other markets, but Privateer (as the only one of your examples that ever made it into a Danish games store) is all but extinct in the Danish market - most often heard reason for people dropping Warmachine (Hordes never really reached the public here, I think): Too expensive miniatures.
Gamezone miniatures is another good one since they basically are the Spanish GW model for model.
I think Gamezone is more or less trying to feed the GW community with supplementing minis. Why should they not try to tap into the same pockets that GW do? On the reason that 'If someone is willing to pay that much, why shouldn't we charge the same?'
How about Merc Minis? $10 USD for each rank and file.
I have never seen any of their minis on a wargaming table. I had one look at their site once, and decided their pricer ange was not for me. As I suspect a whole lot of others do.
Corvus Belli Infinity is another good one: $12-20 USD average for heavy weapons figs and characters. The previously mention Red Box Games is about $10 a figure for unit champion level figures. I can go on.
Same as above. I don't know how big Infinity is, have never met anyone playing it. Their minis are of extremely high quality as far as I can see from pics.
Also I'm not going to argue rules with you since you seem dead set against allowing that any set of rules GW makes could make is anything other than a conspiracy against wallets.
I should have been more precise in my wording: Every NEW edition of a ruleset is. I do not think that it is unfair of them - I just cannot understand that so many gamers are unvilling to admit it.
I actually think they made 2 good wargames (3 if you count Rogue Trader): Space Marine 2nd Ed. (aka Epic Space Marine) and Warmaster. Both of which have been retired to the Specialist Games section, as the scale of miniatures does not allow a new edition to make players buy re-sculpted models for their arnmies (they relaunched Epic believing that a change of bases would make people invest heavily - and failed). The same fate has befallen Necromunda, Mordheim, and Blood Bowl, as they simply cannot be turned into cash cows because players simply do not need to constantly buy new minis for them.
"I keep hearing the argument, that other companies also sell expensive minis. Yes they do. And often get penalized to do so "
My argument is that they catch more flak for it than anyone else.
They probably do. Because so many more people KNOW them. Can't see anything unfair in that, you can't shoot at a hidden enemy....
As for Rackham; It's my understanding that most complaints against them are that they dropped their metal line. Which was more expensive per figure than their new prepaints.
Yes, they had to drop them because they did not generate enough sales. Just like Heartbreaker went bust on Warzone and Chronopia when they tried to 'go GW', so nearly did Rackham because of their fantasy ranges (at least I heard so from an 'insider').
The one BIG problem with gamers is, that we always want all we see, and we are all willing to offer big oral support to anyone putting out some nice sculpts, but when it comes down to it, we only have that much money to use on the hobby and have to prioritize food for our children, etc.
But I actually think this discussion has become derailed, somehow, as my posts really were not directed against their pricing (which I DO find ridiculous, but - as stated - fair enough as long as someone are willing to pay, that's just the mechanics of a free market - I just don't get why gamers all around the globe don't play their games with other, cheaper, minis, if they are so fond of the rules), but merely at their rules, that I find thoroughly uninspired (as well as uninspiring).
(Buying the boxed games is another matter, as you actually get minis at a more reasonable price by doing so)
And I have never watched (or participated in, for all that matters) a game of 40K or WH that took under 3-4 hours, and where much more time was spent argueing over rules, and looking up the same, than actually pushing the minis around. And I never play competitively, only with friends in good spirits....
And I would, for once, like to know WHAT it is that makes people think especially those two games are so fantastic that it justifies buying another version of the rules every 4-5 years. I did so 3-4 times and really regret it. Money had been better spent on some nice minis. Everytime I bought a new edition it was in the hope, that this time it would get better - and most of the times it seemed so, just until the first Warhammer Armies came out, and every good intention that might have neen in there went down the drains... again.
Sold all my Orcs and Goblins some years ago. Still have a lot of GW minis from the good old 80's and 90's as well as a lot of LotR minis from this last decade, that I use for skirmish gaming of various kinds.
And, Rob:
If you don't want to hear opinions that differ from your own, why do you attend internet fora? Fora are for sharing , AND discussing (in a civilized manner, under which statements like 'shut up' not really belong), not just for padding each others backs.
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I can't even be bothered to read this. ::)
I love you too. :)
"Hordes get some nice advantages. The whole front rank fights, the second rank all get one attack. The third rank get attacks if they have spears."
Actually we both got this wrong. Only models in base contact fight, but models directly behind those that are fighting get 1 supporting attack. Hordes get an additional ranks worth of supporting attacks. And spears get an additional ranks worth as well if they don't charge that round. (basic rules don't mention pikes) So a large enough horde of Empire spears fully in base contact with an enemy will get 40 attacks. Small elite units of knights don't have it so easy anymore. :)
Umm yes, yes they do lol. You owe them your livelihood for example....
Once a sale is made and both parties are satisfied with the deal (i.e. you got what you paid for) the "owing" part is over. Attitudes like that lead to people believing they should have some kind of pull or other reward from a business for buying something from them 20 years ago. And if it's my 'livelihood' I owe the customers as you say, they are welcome to it for all the good it will do them. :p
"If you want to make money you give the consumer exactly what they want. If you have started and failed in this business, with that attitude, it's no wonder you sound so bitter."
I'm not exactly bitter, but the attitudes I've encountered since I've entered the business and gotten to know people better have made me much more cynical about people in this hobby. We haven't failed as a business, but we're not doing anything like great though we try to improve with every show.
I don't give my customers attitude, quite the opposite. I save my venting for message boards. Lucky you.
"If your product is good, your price fair and you meet customer expectations you'll do very well, many small companies prove this every day."
And like I said; many fail or aren't able to gain purchase because of prevailing attitudes. Ask Richard Ansell about his difficulties getting gamers to accept his line of properly proportioned Napoleonics sometime. Capitalism isn't all it's cracked up to be, and hard work is too often rewarded with apathy. I wonder where you work that you don't realize that. :)
"GW do this, they can get away with charging what would be way too much for a relatively poor product because they offer other things than just the mini and rules to their market."
And what relatively poor product would this be? :) If you don't like their rules, fair enough. However, saying the produce poor quality product is questionable.
"The main thing being accessibility, brand recognition and market saturation. Without this they wouldn't get away with selling what they do now for the price they charge."
You mean like the Perries, Wargames Foundry, and Privateer Press?
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I cannot speak for other markets, but Privateer (as the only one of your examples that ever made it into a Danish games store) is all but extinct in the Danish market - most often heard reason for people dropping Warmachine (Hordes never really reached the public here, I think): Too expensive miniatures.
We obviously have different experiences. Many people here prefer Warmachine because they perceive it to be less expensive than GW games.
"If someone is willing to pay that much, why shouldn't we charge the same?"
Except that they charge more than GW does... That's why I said look them up. :)
"I had one look at their site once, and decided their pricer ange was not for me. As I suspect a whole lot of others do."
But do people get angry about it and continually needle forums every time the subject comes up? I don't think so.
"I just cannot understand that so many gamers are unvilling to admit it."
Again, we have two very different experiences, both online and in person. Your kind of attitude is prevalent most places I go (several conventions a year in the US). However I believe GW has a very good business reason for the rules churn. We can get into it if you like. However I believe that if GW said no more to continually refreshing it's rules and army books it would be dead as a business a year or two after implementing it's decision. It's what keeps them and their retailers alive and interest in their games as high as it is.
"(they relaunched Epic believing that a change of bases would make people invest heavily - and failed). The same fate has befallen Necromunda, Mordheim, and Blood Bowl, as they simply cannot be turned into cash cows because players simply do not need to constantly buy new minis for them."
For Epic, they said several times in the rulebook that basing did not matter. Indeed the model count in Epic 40k and the last gasp of Epic Armageddon dropped both times from what it previously had been.
As for the other games, Yes I agree with you 100% about the other games. If something can't support it's weight in sales, it gets discontinued. I know this has hurt their public opinion, but they have had to weigh that against what it would cost to support and stock in stores such slow moving items. It's a shame, but I agree with it as a business move. However rather than just put them away altogether they decided to make them free downloads and allow the fans to continue to edit them as living rulebooks.
Surely they get some credit for that.
"Can't see anything unfair in that, you can't shoot at a hidden enemy...."
I guess I should have said; "They catch a disproportionate amount of flak for that." Better?
"The one BIG problem with gamers is, that we always want all we see, and we are all willing to offer big oral support to anyone putting out some nice sculpts, but when it comes down to it, we only have that much money to use on the hobby and have to prioritize food for our children, etc."
Sure. I know all about the bluster first hand. It's why I don't solicit ideas from the message boards. I know that the "OMG IT'S SO AWESOME!!!" crowd doesn't have any money. :)
"I just don't get why gamers all around the globe don't play their games with other, cheaper, minis, if they are so fond of the rules), but merely at their rules, that I find thoroughly uninspired (as well as uninspiring)."
Oh. That's easy. People want everything to be official. Look at TMP everytime some new sci-fi or fantasy ruleset comes out people ask if they can use their models with it or if it's tied to a miniatures line. Or the rule sets that talk about having a points system, "So at last you can use all your models!!!!!" I know the first question I get asked every time about our own line of miniatures is: "Does it have a rules set to go with it?" And we've lost I don't know how many sales for Hydra's War Rocket line of spaceships because the rules aren't out yet. People love the figures but refuse to buy until the official rules are out.
One interview I read with Jervis Johnson said that one of the reasons GW came out with Apocalypse is because people were asking for an official set of rules to play big battles with hordes of troops and titan models and such.
Gamer's aren't as smart and creative as they like to think they are. :)
"And I have never watched (or participated in, for all that matters) a game of 40K or WH that took under 3-4 hours, and where much more time was spent argueing over rules, and looking up the same, than actually pushing the minis around. And I never play competitively, only with friends in good spirits...."
Well I think this new edition of WH goes quite a ways to making the game faster. We'll see. Though I agree totally about 40k. I love the background and the models but the system is not made for the army levels it's played at even with the current streamlining. I think it's half GW's fault and half the player's fault. GW wants to sell models of course, but the player's want to push all their toys around in one game and not have to make tough choices about what to take in their army. It's why Apocalypse was such a big hit for them.
I think 40k is better at much smaller points values than the norm. Say under 1000, though recent army books are all very heavily weighted towards 1500-2000 point games as that's what most of their fans seem to be telling them they want. Especially as it's a standard tournament points level. GW seems to be trying to take the steam out of tournaments recently by saying repeatedly that their games are not meant to be competitive. But they are beholden to the fans and momentum is against casual play.
"And, Rob:
If you don't want to hear opinions that differ from your own, why do you attend internet fora? Fora are for sharing , AND discussing (in a civilized manner, under which statements like 'shut up' not really belong), not just for padding each others backs."
At least I'm not the only one who thinks this. :) Taking controversy out and practically mandating every other post to be "OMG you are a god among men, I am not worthy!!!" has made me gravitate away from forums as a whole. I'd like some real discussion, but it's real hard to find.
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One interview I read with Jervis Johnson said that one of the reasons GW came out with Apocalypse is because people were asking for an official set of rules to play big battles with hordes of troops and titan models and such.
Gamer's aren't as smart and creative as they like to think they are. :)
Kids brought up by the Evil Empire (who play in EE stores) have the creativity quickly stamped out of them. They can be as creative as they want with painting and modeling (as long as it's all EE product), but gods help you if you try to tinker with their finely crafted perfect rules.
::)
It has taken many months for me to begin to tap back into my creative side when it comes to tinkering with rules sets as that side of my hobby has been sorely wasted while I only had an EE store to play in for years.
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Gentlemen, so back to the rules
Too bad that only the in contact figures in the front rank fight. I was getting excited about the rules if all the front rank could fight. So we can still end up with that weird situation where with a really wide unit, half the figures are just standing around.
I do like the idea of the step up rule. It has always been a frustration that the second rank is there and yet don't get to fight if the front rank was just killed.
Warhammer Historical has had the counter charge rule for some time which reduces the illogic of some of the charge rules. It always seemed strange that my mounted troops wouild spend a turn or 2 moving at full speed towards the enemy, and then if the charge was in my opponents turn, my troops seemed to stop put down their lances, and take the charge.
I want a rule set where all the figures in a units front rank fight, where being wider and deeper then your opponent is an advantage, where a unit that is moving towards the enemy at full speed is considered to be chargeing, even if the contact occurs in the other players turn. A rule set that does not make leaders and heroes super powerful. .....Oh wait, I have those rules, they are TACTICA by Arty Contliffe.
Anyway if what it takes to sell miniatures and to keep the game lively, is to come up with new rules, that is fine. I have never been against new rule sets, even if my favorite was 3d edition (Bring back free hack!). :D The problem has never been with the new rules. It has been with the army of the month being the most powerful. Now if they would leave empire for last instead of first, it might become really powerful. oooh! :D
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@ Viper: I don't think that's it either. GW may not be helping, but I don't think a lack of imagination in players is their fault. I think it's a larger cultural problem. Look at everyone on these boards with a project copying some movie or video game. Or the debates on whether a particular model of power armor is enough like a "hydrocephalic gorilla" to please the Starship Troopers fans. (There's a debate that never gets silly and pedantic. :) )
I like what Yahtzee said in his review of the Dragon Age video game: "There's something terribly weird about the standard fantasy setting. Not least of which the phrase "standard fantasy setting" can be uttered without irony. Look at us, we're a civilization so steeped in escapism that we've managed to find mundanity in something that doesn't exist and never will."
Hell, historical gaming is all about a lack of creativity. And I realize that it can be fun to play in someone else's universe for awhile, but if you take the time to look around it's kind of sad how few people are even trying to do something that's not "official" in some capacity.
Gentlemen, so back to the rules
Yes, let's stop discussion of anti-GW rants so you can make an anti-GW rant. What a change of pace. ::) I like how you pretend that you're taking the moral high ground by doing so as well. :)
I don't know what more there is to say really. Unless someone wants to ask questions of those of us who have the new book?
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Thanks WB, now then, as mine are hurtling towards me as fast as the Royal Mail can walk, what do people think of the new rules, both gameplay and aesthetics?
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With the new rules coming in at a hefty £45, plus new bits, I think it's time I shed my armies or looked for some new rules...........
Ha, I started off like this and then bought them anyway, I kinda knew I would....................... o_o
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I had another flick through last night and my work mate had a shufty yesterday. I must admit I was distracted by the pretty pictures too much to really concentrate on what I was reading but they seem fair enough to me and my mate. We are hopefully going to have a 2000pt bash on Monday (as long as work lets up) and I'll get a chance to wield those 70 pikemen :D
If we do get a game in on Monday then I'll try to write a report about it (how the rules work, not about the fact that I'll loose ;) because my track record is about two wins in as many years ::) )
cheers
James
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Gentlemen, so back to the rules
Too bad that only the in contact figures in the front rank fight. I was getting excited about the rules if all the front rank could fight. So we can still end up with that weird situation where with a really wide unit, half the figures are just standing around.
I want a rule set where all the figures in a units front rank fight, where being wider and deeper then your opponent is an advantage, where a unit that is moving towards the enemy at full speed is considered to be chargeing, even if the contact occurs in the other players turn. A rule set that does not make leaders and heroes super powerful. .....Oh wait, I have those rules, they are TACTICA by Arty Contliffe.
Erm, I think the way it works no is all units fight in 2 ranks. Yes, just the ones touching. However, if your unit is at lease 10 men wide, you cound another ranks worth of troops to fight.
So, if your chaos lord on foot is attacking my huge unit of goblins, Im going to have 3 gobbos in base contact. That would mean 3 in the front rank, 3 in the second rank and 3 more with my nice wide unit. Add in spears and thats quite a few attacks.
SOunds like a fun system. I actually quite like the way they change warhammer verey few years. Keep sit kind of fresh. I do wish all the army lists were in the same book though, updated all at the same time.
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Well from my reading of the rules, no pictures to distract me in a shoddy black and white scanned copy of just the rules sections, it seems to be much of the usual EE.
By that I mean they fixed some stuff that needed fixed, broke some stuff that didn't need touched, and did a bit of both to some other things. This gets even worse when you include the new Errata/FAQs aswell.
:?
All in all, much better than 7th ... but then that wasn't too difficult.
The really important thing though will be how the armybooks turn out, and if the creep continues.
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I picked up my copy last night. I haven't had much time to read it, but I did read through the magic section, which has changed a fair amount. I think I like those changes - looking forward to seeing how they play.
It is certainly a very pretty rulebook.
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Heheh...
I don't think we differ that much in our opinions about the market, and about gaming, after all. It all comes down to words and phrasing.
Only one comment:
I know that a lot of gamers have the 'official bug'. Most of it, I think stems from the times where every even so small games store had at least one 'official' Warhammer or 40K tournament a year, very often overseen by a GW employee of some sorts. You just could not participate if you did not have a purestrain GW army.
But, frankly, how many games of Warhammer/40K does a the average gamer play a year, and how large a proportion of that is played as part of an official tournament? And I don't mean a tournament at your local club, but one where GW can actually ban you for not using their minis?
I think the only reason for consistently linking minis with particular rulesets is when the range of minis is so different from anythin else that you don't know what other ruleset to use (only example I can think of just now is War Rocket by Hydra, Pulp Retro Spaceship battles for which they have launched some VERY cute minis, but I'm not going to cash out on them before I have the faintest clue how to game with them - BFG, Full Thrust, or Firestorm just wouldn't FEEL right lol )
But, OK, this thread has becomne more or less obsolete, anyway - joroas asked for advice concerning whether to buy or not buy the newest edition, which he ended up doing, so the rest is history :)
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"Background sounds of shutters closing"
Thanks guys for your input. as stated yes, I wavered, but I knew I would succumb after all. I guess everyone has a lot of soulsearching over GW, but the reality is that, because they are on our High Streets, and just like McDonald's, they are tempting in a way that no other store can be, even if you only buy paints and brushes.
'Night, 'night! :D
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"Background sounds of shutters closing"
Thanks guys for your input. as stated yes, I wavered, but I knew I would succumb after all. I guess everyone has a lot of soulsearching over GW, but the reality is that, because they are on our High Streets, and just like McDonald's, they are tempting in a way that no other store can be, even if you only buy paints and brushes.
'Night, 'night! :D
You see them and you can't resist stopping and looking through the window. Even though you know you really don't want anything and you try your hardest to carry on walking, you're drawn in and end up pigging-out.
Oh, so shameful lol
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I kind of like how you could just play with the basic book. Base stats for practically every unit for most races are in the back of the book as well as several example swarms and monsters. There's also several lores of magic and rules for weapons and special attributes in the main rules. And just looking right now tons of magic items. Just make scenarios with no points.
It's oddly like the WHFB version of Black Powder that way.... I have an idea...
Heheh...I don't think we differ that much in our opinions about the market, and about gaming, after all. It all comes down to words and phrasing.
Could be.
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Can somebody please point me to an overview what's actually in the book? I've searched quite a bit (maybe not hard enough) but couldn't find a table of content or something. Just want to decide if to buy the big book now or wait for the starter set. Thanks in advance. :)
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"Background sounds of shutters closing"
Thanks guys for your input. as stated yes, I wavered, but I knew I would succumb after all. I guess everyone has a lot of soulsearching over GW, but the reality is that, because they are on our High Streets, and just like McDonald's, they are tempting in a way that no other store can be, even if you only buy paints and brushes.
'Night, 'night! :D
Lucky me Games Workshop can't afford "High Street" here in NYC so I've managed to avoid the two stores for a couple of years now. It's helps that the manager of the nearest store left and his replacement is an a***(word not suitable for children). Now McDonald's... they're on every street corner.
Rob
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Well, we have two within 8 miles of my house and at least 10 within 50. Managers over here tend to turn over with speedy regularity.........
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Yup, I'm in the same boat.
The fact that there's what, 3? in Central London, I'm pretty sure the reason they don't have one in New York isn't about affordability.
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I have 3 game stores close by (within 20 miles), 2 of which carry GW one does not. None of them are "GW" stores of course. I honestly don't know where the nearest GW store is.
Now McDonalds, I can walk to., drive by 5 on the way to work.
But for real common it is Starbucks. I think I pass 15 driving to work.
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Yup, I'm in the same boat.
The fact that there's what, 3? in Central London, I'm pretty sure the reason they don't have one in New York isn't about affordability.
Oh Rob, But they do have 2 stores, they had 3 a while back. These stores are a little out of the way of my travel patterns that's how I've managed to keep away. Now if they were on 5th Ave or 14th st or 34th st or 42nd st it would be impossible to avoid them as they are the main hubs. GW put their stores near a major Uni and a major high school. An evil plan if ever I saw one.
Rob
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I wouldn't call that evil at all. If I was at a uni that was far away from the town centre, I'd like a GW nearby. Luckily Coventry Uni is all over the place and the art building is just down the road from GW (which is above Wilkinson's in a shopping centre, so I go there whenever I need to buy expanding foam or crap paint).
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Just want to decide if to buy the big book now or wait for the starter set. Thanks in advance. :)
There's no online pics of the table of contents that I've seen. Though if you're wondering the bits that'll probably get cut down or taken out would be the campaign rules, 'fantasy' terrain rules, scenarios, stat references, history fluff, and army introductions. I imagine the main rules will be much more breezily rewritten and alot of the example images taken out.
I guess it depends on how much you want the bells and whistles. The starter sets should be pretty complete as far as the essential rules go.
However, with the magic decks being sold seperately I could almost imagine the lores of magic rules not being in the boxed set. Though I don't think they'll do that.
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They should be in there. The magic decks are limited edition, it would be stupid to deprive people of the ability to use the common lores! ;D
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Thanks, wolfgangbrooks. :)
I take it that in the big book sample stats for every race/faction are included? I have stopped buying WFB during 6th edition, and I'm actually not willing to add another layer of army books to my shelf only to be 'up to date' with the core rules. So, sample stats would be nice to make up armies on my own. ::)
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You're welcome. It seems just about all the stats are included, including alot of special characters. It seems they did it to point out which models are what for purposes of basic special rules such as monstrous infantry and such. But it's more than good enough for what you want to do.
They should be in there. The magic decks are limited edition, it would be stupid to deprive people of the ability to use the common lores! ;D
Actually it's just the army specific ones that are limited. The core magic lores set haven't been tagged as such.
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Wow, just saw the figures for the new boxed set. Most are better than their current counterparts by a long shot.
http://baddice.co.uk/island-of-blood-box-contents-pics/
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Wow 16 pages... I too have been suckered into thinking about Warhammer Fantasy Battle. I haven't played in over ten years. However I do have an old mostly plastic goblin army from 4th edition (the first box set, you know the figs) I've been trying to get it painted and on the field on and off for a while. The last time I actually played was with Nurgle Daemons as my 40K army has enough to field a small army.
Once again I'm fielding an all Nurgle Daemon army because it is less painting. I need to paint four models to have 1500 points which seems to be the store game size now in Vancouver. I will have a block of 39 Plaguebearers with a Herald making them a four rank deep horde. Unfortunately they changed regeneration, so this is less good than it would have been in 7e.
The big rule I discovered is Steadfast. Look that one up, basically if you have more ranks than the opponent it doesn't matter if they killed a pile of you, you can take your break test on your full leadership. This matters a lot for my goblins...
I think high initiative troops are finally being rewarded and combined with high leadership will battle the hordes, that is why it is high elves versus skaven in the box, they are probably the two most extreme armies. Goblins could possibly outnumber Skaven but usually you don't see pure goblin armies. I have a unit of 66 spearman well 65 with the Battle Standard Bearer that I painted, well everything but the shields...
Shields are way better, if you have a hand weapon and shield, not a magic hand weapon though, you get a parry save, basically a 6+ unmodifiable save. This is how I will now field my Ork infantry if (when?) I get around to painting them. I too am more of a painter collector than a player. I think the book is huge and has lots of pretty pictures. I has piles of fluff, but I've always been more of a 40K player, but I agree people try to cram too many models on too small of a table in the States especially. I think 1500 points on a 6*4 table is about as much as you should go.
Cheers,
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Well, that Maelstrom Games 17,5% discount lured me into ordering the rules (and some other bits while I was there... >:( ). I'm mainly getting this for the production values and the eyecandy. Odds are high that they will go unplayed just like my copies of previous editions.
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Actually it's just the army specific ones that are limited. The core magic lores set haven't been tagged as such.
Sorry! I got the idea that they were limited.
They are damned cool regardless, it stops you having to flick through the book all the time! :)
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I want to get the magic cards. I got just about all the other accessories in the new release except the skull dice. (I'd rather get dice made of actual bone.) I've got no excuse other than I think the stuff is cool and kinda wish other companies would release neat sculpted accessories like that. Laser etched acrylic tokens and rulers with a logo on it don't do much for me. :)
On another note, I've noticed a couple of strange passages in the rules. One was a mention in the history stuff about a convoy being ambushed by needle toothed seamonsters which might just be a throw away reference except for the inclusion of a special rule for seafaring creatures. Nothing I can think of in the current armies has a use for that. Unless they plan to make Pirates of Sartosa an official mini army again. Coinciding with the release of the next Pirates of the Caribbean movie?
Muskie: "I will have a block of 39 Plaguebearers with a Herald making them a four rank deep horde."
I wanna try that. I've got nearly that many buying second hand at HMGS flea-markets. It's kinda weird that the Plaguebearers are the only core demon that hasn't gotten a plastic set yet considering how many people seem to love Nurgle.
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Sounds like they're really fleshing out WHFB. Although I haven't played it since 4th edition so for all I know I could be taking this all the wrong way! I've got to say I'm really intrigued by the whole thing.
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On another note, I've noticed a couple of strange passages in the rules. One was a mention in the history stuff about a convoy being ambushed by needle toothed seamonsters which might just be a throw away reference except for the inclusion of a special rule for seafaring creatures. Nothing I can think of in the current armies has a use for that. Unless they plan to make Pirates of Sartosa an official mini army again. Coinciding with the release of the next Pirates of the Caribbean movie?
There's all sorts of odd things in there. Mention of Elementals being used by armies in Araby, Celestial Dragon monks in Cathay, there is only one mention of the Chaos Dwarfs and that is one of the armies in the battles section (under forces of chaos for the big game).
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Muskie: "I will have a block of 39 Plaguebearers with a Herald making them a four rank deep horde."
I wanna try that. I've got nearly that many buying second hand at HMGS flea-markets. It's kinda weird that the Plaguebearers are the only core demon that hasn't gotten a plastic set yet considering how many people seem to love Nurgle.
Nurgle got a lot more popular when the latest 40K codex came out and they had Feel No Pain. Before that it was an acquired taste, now min-maxers and people who lack creativity flock to Plaguemarines. Plaguebearers have always been fun to paint and I suspect to sculpt, there has always been a lot of them in the back catalogue. I don't have them all, but I have over 40 now I guess. Like I said regeneration their bonus ability when the Herald joins got reduced in power as you have to chose between a ward save or regeneration now and they all have a 5+ ward save...
Poisoned Attacks seems pretty good, everything Nurgle seems to get it. I think if I add to the army I'll do daemonettes and fiends. I like Beasts of Nurgle again, it is the first time in like a decade they've been decent in either game. They are 100 points, but they get the "Stomp" rule and if you field six in two ranks the back ones get 3 attacks. Also under random attacks it says role for each model in the unit, which isn't how I was doing it in 40K when I tried the spawn (Beasts of Nurgle) out when the most recent Chaos Codex came out.
My neighbours are still partying, though a loud argument broke out, it has been a rather strange evening just outside my door.
I've painted lots of nurgle models you can see a few of the plaguebearers here:
http://nurgle.muschamp.ca/assault.html
When I get the last three painted, I'll do up a new movement trey and take a photo for sure. After about August 25th I'll let you know if they kill anything, I suspect they'll be a popular target and the faster moving Beasts and the Daemon Prince might actually be the offensive force of the army. Not sure what Nurglings will accomplish they have a lot of rules: Swarm, Scouts, Daemonic etc.
Cheers,
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I always favoured nurgle. Khorne are cheesy, Slaanesh are just wrong and Tzeentch are probably second to Nurgle. I actually see Tzeetch as being the most 'chatoic', with the random nature of 'change'.
The other gods, including Nurgle, I do not see as 'Chaotic'. But I still really like Nurgle and would love to do a nurgle army. However, I want to wait for plastic Plaguebearers!!! lol
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Wow, those are some damned good sculpts in the new box! I think my wife would kill me if I started a new Skaven army....
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The new sculpts pictured on 20mm bases or 25mm bases?
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Both armies pretty much exclusively use 20mm bases for infantry.
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The models in the new starter set are very nice indeed.
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They're releasing plastic horrors soon. They are on the pre-order page. As for plastic Nurgle guys, I'd like plastic Nurglings or Snotlings... You could put them on bases, vehicles, standards etc. etc.
I'm not holding out for plastic plaguebearers, but I don't think I'll be buying many more than the 40-45 I have.
If I do more daemons it will be Daemonettes and Fiends of Slaneesh. I think they would go well with my existing daemon force. That said I've always been more of a 40K guy so I'll be painting more 40K models than fantasy models in the near future and likely long term as well.
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Well, if they have now done plastics for all the chaos gods, Nurgle must be coming soon.
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Yay, 16 pages and still going strong.................... o_o
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No, I tricked it into 17................ :o
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Right then, just a quick question.
Reading the weapons page, spears fight in an additional rank, OK. Second rank in combat gets it's supporting attacks, OK. If the unit is a horde and the third rank also fights, OK. So if I had a horde unit of spears I would get four ranks in combat then. Am I reading this right?
Ta muchly :)
cheers
James
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Reading the weapons page, spears fight in an additional rank, OK. Second rank in combat gets it's supporting attacks, OK. If the unit is a horde and the third rank also fights, OK. So if I had a horde unit of spears I would get four ranks in combat then. Am I reading this right?
Yep, hordes with spears are good :)
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Yep, hordes with spears are good :)
All the more reason to get my 65 goblin spearman with battle standar bearer on the table top. I opted for the Spider Banner so they all have poisoned attacks. My big blocks of bowman look better too, as they have volley fire now.
I'll be painting Nurgle Daemons tonight as supposedly I need to be ready for Sunday and the start of the instore campaign...
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Well, Im going to be doing 115 orc archers to start with, plus 6 bolt throwers, so please, bring on the big units. Plus dont forget spells that effect a single unit. POW! Then, flank charges to deny rank bonus etc.
I think thats the fun of war gaming, there are som many option that you simply cannot make an unbeatable army.
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Don't goblins have better aim, or is that just in 40K? I have a unit of 55 Night Goblin archers which with the new volley rule I'm looking forward to seeing if two inches really does matter. lol
Let me find a pic, I still need to base my goblins and do the damn shields, but I haven't used them since 4th edition so why rush now. I'm a stickler for paint before play, otherwise you never paint. I'm doing Nurgle Daemons right now as it is less work to get the army on the table by Sunday when the LGS campaign starts.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2649/3910468688_73351d82b5.jpg)
That shot came from my Flickr set (http://www.flickr.com/photos/muskiemckay/sets/72157622094863135/) if you want to see a bigger version. I'm warning you now it is almost all GW stuff, though I've painted 150 plus Silent Death ships no one plays that in Vancouver much so they sit in a case, I'll get them displayed someday... I photographed some of them in an old miniature gallery I put online (http://www.muschamp.ca/Muskie/MiniatureGallery/MiniatureGallery.html), which includes some of these old orks and goblins, I've since painted them a lot more...
Cheers,
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That looks awesome!
Yup, hordes goooood.
With ogres, they get full attacks for the two front ranks and another for the third and what's more, you only need 18 ogres to do that... :D
Thats a whopping 48 (49 with a champion) attacks.
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Far more important for goblins though are the hero units or at least hero front rank.
With the new way heros are bought you can pack about 10, and a battlestandard AND a Warlord into an average sized army.
:o
While that did make the former greenskin player in me smile I've got too many issues with the rules for them to make me want to get back into the game, for better or worse I'm not sure...depends what comes of Mantics greenskin models really.
:)
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I like the fact they've gone back to percentages for army lists. Purely from a 'Now I get to use the fantastic conversion of a general' point of view ;D
cheers
James
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With ogres, they get full attacks for the two front ranks and another for the third and what's more, you only need 18 ogres to do that... :D
Thats a whopping 48 (49 with a champion) attacks.
Don't forget the 3 rank 'belly gut charge' impact attacks and that all 18 figures will get a Stomp attack too. The only problem being that's about 600pts for that unit :)
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Don't goblins have better aim, or is that just in 40K? I have a unit of 55 Night Goblin archers which with the new volley rule I'm looking forward to seeing if two inches really does matter. lol
Erm, I used to play large goblin shooting units, worked a treat. The orc bows though have 24" range to the goblin bows at 16" range. Makes a difference. Plus in the end, its orcs with bows not goblins. Tougher and better LD....2 points each more? I think its worth it.
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Erm, I used to play large goblin shooting units, worked a treat. The orc bows though have 24" range to the goblin bows at 16" range. Makes a difference. Plus in the end, its orcs with bows not goblins. Tougher and better LD....2 points each more? I think its worth it.
You haven't read the fine print. Short bows now have a range of 18 inches! Like I said we'll see if two inches makes a different. I have some metal and plastic Arrer boys which I was going to include in my first 1500 but I already got the goblins mostly finished. I as thinking of using the Orks as more of a war machine bodyguard.
I've read of people just ranking up the arrer boys like regular orks and I think with volley shot that is more valid too. I'm kinda partial to square units so 25, 36... I also seem to have ended up with basically multiples of 11 in goblins so 66 and 55 will be movement trays I'll have to make. I want to see about getting Litko magnetic stuff, but the funds aren't their right now.
Yet another reason why I'm running Nurgle Daemons (http://musksminiatures.wordpress.com/2010/07/20/painting-rusty-weapons/), just like I did over ten years ago, last time a store manager talked me into joining a Warhammer Fantasy Battle campaign.
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Don't forget the 3 rank 'belly gut charge' impact attacks and that all 18 figures will get a Stomp attack too. The only problem being that's about 600pts for that unit :)
yeah...
I tried it out the other night against wood elves and just got surrounded and slaughtered with no hope of support!!!!
The unit did, however, tie up her whole army!!!! lol
Think I need a rethink...
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Rules arrived in the week, along with the combat chart and magic cards. At the moment all I can say is that they are heavy.............. :o
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Yeah it's a paint to flick through when you forget rules, especially simple ones, like how many spells do you get... ;D
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Errata online now, 3 pages of errors. You'd think for £50 that they'd check it thoroughly. How p*ssed would you be if you had bought the expensive one? :-X
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1330084a_FAQ_WarhammerRulebook_2010_v1.pdf
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On the plus side, there is an article on Islands of Blood:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=11500028a&utm_term=warhammer&utm_medium=email&utm_content=text-link-body&utm_source=e1400001-en_GB&utm_campaign=FAQ-Update-News-en_GB
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To be fair, most of them aren't errors. They are cleaning up the wording or adding in common sense things like the Two Hand Weapons requires two hands thing to keep the rules lawyers at from doing stupid things.
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Yup, which is goooood!
Still have the same atmosphere in some GWs. People playing the rules rather than the game. ::)
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I still haven't played the game, but I've read most of the rules, they seem pretty straight forward. It is the special rules in the army books that usually cause the problems...
Anyway I've been working on getting the Nurgle Daemons ready for Sunday and that means re-basing old Beasts of Nurgle and making a custom movement tray for the Plaguebearers. It also means blog post. lol
http://musksminiatures.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/precision-engineering/ (http://musksminiatures.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/precision-engineering/)
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Once you know all your army special rules, it is quite straightforward. I often make a quick reference 'datasheet' for that.
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I think in any game where there are competitive tournaments some people are going to "play the rules" rather than the game. Is is a characteristic of tournament play more than it is of WH players, Magic the Gathering players, etc.
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You're right, it is largely for rule lawyers, obviously a two-handed weapon needs two hands........... ::)
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That`s why I collect (and very, very sometimes play) forgotten or non official armies like Albion and the Chaos Dwarves. Ruleslawyers don`t want to play `em due to nog being the real deal, and saves me a lot of discussions and sighs during games lol
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I finished off and photographed my three old (mid period) Beasts of Nurgle and my army is packed (http://musksminiatures.wordpress.com/?p=315) for its 8th Edition debut, hopefully it performs better than last time I was talked into playing GW's square base game.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/4825255993_92032ef9be.jpg)
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I finished off and photographed my three old (mid period) Beasts of Nurgle and my army is packed for its 8th Edition debut, hopefully it performs better than last time I was talked into playing GW's square base game.
I saw those girls in a night club recently............
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Hmm... I need more sleep, but I figured out a way to solve some of my ranking issues and plan on doing some re-basing or improving of the bases of a couple of my Plaguebearers. I also think I'm going to make my banner even more over the top...
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Hmm Beasts, I have the originals somewhere... :)
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You're right, it is largely for rule lawyers, obviously a two-handed weapon needs two hands........... ::)
I know a guy who stopped playing 40K because at a tournament an opponent claimed that his terminators had no terminator armour, as the army list entry did not expressively say so.....
GW KNOW that this is the way a lot of players use their rules - hence I see NO excuse not to do those clarifications/faq/errata BEFORE printing and publishing a new edition of their rules, already making the rulebook somewhat less valuanble in itself. Just another statement to show how little they care about their lifeblood: YOU, the players of their games.....
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I know a guy who stopped playing 40K because at a tournament an opponent claimed that his terminators had no terminator armour, as the army list entry did not expressively say so.....
There's a reason I won't play tournaments anymore.
GW KNOW that this is the way a lot of players use their rules - hence I see NO excuse not to do those clarifications/faq/errata BEFORE printing and publishing a new edition of their rules, already making the rulebook somewhat less valuanble in itself. Just another statement to show how little they care about their lifeblood: YOU, the players of their games.....
See, now you just come across as bitter.
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See, now you just come across as bitter.
Nope. I didn't buy the book. lol
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I am still miffed that I bought 2 Warhammer Rule Books in 2010 and both had erratta on the website before i had read them. I still maintain the these books aren't cheap, £32 and £50, and the least they should do is playtest them until they are checked rigorously, then pay someone to proofread them, I found at least one language error before I had finished the first chapter.
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I think you should be allowed to shoot stupid people one day out of 365, that was a proposal by some beat writer, Ginsberg perhaps... That would solve a lot of problems with people who are just too obtuse to be allowed to reproduce at least.
There was this teacher in Ottawa and whenever talking about people who were just plain stupid and often annoyingly so, he'd always say "We need more chlorine in the gene pool". Did I mention he was a professional teacher?
Anyway I just play in Astronomi-con, it is the tournament for people who don't like tournaments. Check it out, there are still a few fun people out there. Today's Warhammer 8th Edition Mighty Empires campaign started and the Diseased Sons were there to play their first game of Warhammer Fantasy Battle in over 11 years (http://musksminiatures.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/firstgame/). Of course I lost, but I came close and I showed people not to mess with 40 Plaguebearers... 8)
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Nope. I didn't buy the book. lol
:)
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It's so heavy, you have to read it on a lectern.
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Actually, I would only ever consider buying the BOXED set for a new edition of Warhammer or 40K.
You actually get the minis therein at an almost reasonable price (plus the rules, and some other stuff. I actually bought the marines-part out of one of the 3 (?) sets of the newest box for 40K, Dewbakuk purchased to get Orks (think I got the rules, too, don't remember).
I'm probably not going to play the actual game, but I fiddle around with some small-scale skirmish (with no set squad-structure, and no coherency, but with advancements, and skills), and I'll probably be using 40K minis BIG time, when a Far-Future sourcebook for Flying Lead becomes available :D
Don't get me wrong: I think many of their minis are great (as long as they are not over-the-top - luckily the plastic sets often allow you to omit some of the more obsolete details) - I'm just not a fan of their rules, as they provide, in my opinion, VERY slow paced games - and the way special rules are presented/used give the rules-lawyers too much ammo.
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I actually bought the marines-part out of one of the 3 (?) sets of the newest box for 40K, Dewbakuk purchased to get Orks (think I got the rules, too, don't remember).
You did, I'm not a fan of the 40k rules, I just wanted the figures :)
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Those black reach orks are awesome. :)
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I bought enough to do a proper Apocalypse formation of Deathcopters, should I ever play Apocalypse :)
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Jesus wept. :o
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Wasn't too bad, there were plenty of people who wanted the Space Marines etc.
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That doesn't surprise me. ::)
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Lead Adventure forum hasn't been loading so well for me in Canada, but the problem seems to have resolved itself after about 24 hours. I didn't do much hobby stuff, recovering from yesterday and last night.
Last night I worked on the first of several new movement trays some of which will be magnetized. I also went through a bunch more old miniatures and dug out an old Steed of Sleenesh and rather tiny Fiend of Slaneesh which I'll will be assembling and basing tomorrow.
I also bought some sculpted square bases to give a little more stature to the Fiend and my stand in Herald of Tzeentch. The local shop had no horrors, I think they have been leaving the system as the plastic ones arrive in a week or two, but I think my campaign army needs more magic support ASAP.
I'll try to keep blogging (http://musksminiatures.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/custom-magnetic-bases-and-movement-trays/), but I need to find a new job still too...
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The core starter sets are probably the cheapest way to get a fairly nice sized army through GW these days.
Which is fine aslong as you want to play Orks, Marines, High Elves or Skaven.
Buy them with a discount from an online supplier then sell the half you don't need, or find someone who wants to start the opposite army to chip in for the sets with you.
:)
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Nice Nurlie beasts, Muskie!
I have been looking at painted versions of some of the figures on the GW website - they really do look good. I particularly love that griffon.