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Author Topic: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!  (Read 21879 times)

Offline McMordain

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2017, 10:33:13 AM »
Well, the film lost me in the first five minutes with Poe doing Starlord style stalling followed by the bombing run... Dropping bombs in space... ??? What happened to proton torpedoes?
The humour was to much for me in a SW film. They weren't bad, I laughed a lot, but it was distracting.
I'm pretty good with suspension of disbelief, but it depends on the film as well. This movie was not something I wanted or expected form a SW episode and apart for the last 30 minutes or so, I didn't really enjoyed it.
I will go see the last part of this trilogy but Episode VIII killed all my interest in Rian Johnson own SW trilogy.

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Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2017, 01:18:25 PM »
Great review, Daeothar!


And this is one of my major opinions, and not so popular with my friends: the original trilogy was also flawed at many levels! (but I still love them ;) )

At the time Alec Guinness, a respected and lauded actor, was in it for the money; he despised the film and the hokey texts he was fed. The storylines were shallow at best, the acting at times clunky and wooden, and the effects, while good for their time, also had their flaws.

But we all remember those fondly. In-jokes are made of the original trilogy's mistakes; they're 'part of the charm', and have actually been embraced by the fans. Probably because we've had to make do with those three films for decades.

Now, that's all true. But I think the flaws of the original are different in kind and degree from the flaws of the new ones. And here's the big distinction: all three of the originals had relatively simple stories:

Star Wars: Princess under attack from evil empire requests help from old hermit knight; young man helps the messengers and discovers that he's the son of a famous hero; hermit and young man enlist rogues to rescue princess; the evil empire unleashes a terrible weapon; after princess's rescue, heroes help rebels to destroy terrible weapon.

The Empire Strikes Back: Evil empire discovers rebel base and attacks; heroes scatter and flee; young knight goes to ancient hermit to begin mystical training. Evil lord sends bounty hunters to capture heroic rogue, to lure his friends into trying to rescue him; young knight attempts rescue but fails, has hand cut off and discovers that evil lord is his father. Frozen rogue is taken to evil gangster by bounty hunter.

Return of the Jedi: Young knight rescues heroic rogue from evil gangster; empire build new terror weapon; rebels launch plan to disable it, which succeeds with help from primitive aliens; young knight confronts father and emperor; is almost defeated, but father repents and kills emperor; lord dies; young knight escapes; heroes blow up terror weapon and overthrow the empire.

Now, I'd have a hard job doing something like that for any of the prequels, or for The Force Awakens, or (initially) for Rogue One (I thought it the best of the new ones, but there's unwarranted planet-hopping complexity at the start). I'll try for The Last Jedi:

First Order attacks rebel base before evacuation is complete; rebels counterattack - but this is contrary to orders of rebel leaders. Rebels destroy a powerful First Order spaceship, but at a great cost. Young woman with strange powers tries to persuade old hermit knight to join the rebellion; he refuses; she persists; he refuses; she starts making psychic contact with young evil lord; old hermit worries about her and shows her a library; he refuses to join the rebels but agrees to train her ... sort of; rebel fleet is pursued by First Order fleet, but something to do with ranges and speed means that they can't catch the fleet (even though they can use hyperspace to get wherever they want); and fleet can't escape through hyperspace because of tracking device on First Order ship; young woman with strange powers travels to First Order HQ and attempts to turn young evil lord; she manages to kill First Order leader, but young evil lord wants to remain evil; rebel fleet is running out of fuel; some rebels hatch plot to find a coder on another planet to disable tracking device; they set off in secret to do this; they find another coder who says he'll do the job, then board First Order ship but get caught. Coder gives away secrets in return for his freedom (why would the First Order let him go?); First Order fleet has damaged rebel flagship and killed most of the commanders, but old princess wakes up floating in space and flies back through space by magic; after a failed attempted coup, deputy rebel leader orders rebels to evacuate to nearby planet with old rebel base and hyperspaces the flagship into the main First Order ship (so why couldn't First Order ships hyperspace themselves much closer to the rebel fleet?), badly damaging it. Rebels on that ship are able to escape; but the power of the First Order doesn't seem much affected, as they are able to land an army on planet with rebel base; rebels launch attack on army from base, but one rebel prevents another from suicidally disabling main First Order weapon; old hermit appears in rebel base and challenges First Order's evil lord, thus slowing attack; they fight, but old hermit disappears and turns out to be an astral projection; on remote planet, old hermit dies; remaining rebels escape through the back door of old rebel base; there are few left, but they prove inspirational.

It's the film I've seen most recently, and that's the best I can do. And I think that's a good illustration with the problems with the new films: pointlessly convoluted narratives. The originals had relatively simple, clear storylines, much like the samurai films and westerns that inspired them.

Quote
Had Lucas had the chance to use the CGI visuals of the prequels back in the seventies and eighties when he did the originals, I have no doubt he would have! Search your feelings; you know it to be true...

No doubt: but the originals are still the better for it (witness the awful changes he made later - only the dewback scene is a good addition, I think). Necessity is the mother of invention, and all that - constraints on artists often lead to better art. Kurosawa made great battle scenes in part because he was forced to be creative with just a couple of hundred horses and extras; directors with access to huge amounts of CGI often produce weightless and ultimately uncompelling spectacles. (I didn't think much of the Jackson LotR battle scenes at the time, and I think they've aged really poorly, whereas - for example - the battle scenes in Apocalypse Now stand up really well).

So yes, you're quite right - but it's just as well he didn't have that chance!  :D

Online Daeothar

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2017, 01:33:55 PM »
@ Hobgoblin: thanks :)

I can absolutely agree with your point that the story telling in all films after the original trilogy is unnecessarily convoluted; in this type of space opera, simple story lines are almost a requirement.

Although you must admit that your description of The Last Jedi could have been shorter (but nowhere near as short as those of the originals)... ;)

And yes; I think the originals are better for not having all the surplus CGI of the other ones. I think it's safe to say that lack of technology might well have saved those films.

One of the greatest rules an artist has to live by is that just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Horror Vacui is a most terrible thing for a filmmaker with a budget and technology to have!

Practical effects are always so much better...
Miniatures you say? Well I too, like to live dangerously...
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Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2017, 01:40:55 PM »
Although you must admit that your description of The Last Jedi could have been shorter (but nowhere near as short as those of the originals)... ;)

Yes, indeed - but I didn't make it longer for rhetorical effect: I just tried to bang out as quick a summary as I could for each film! It would have taken even longer to shorten the Last Jedi summary. I'm reminded of Pascal's quote: "I apologise for the length of this letter; I have not had time to make it shorter".  ;)

One of the greatest rules an artist has to live by is that just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Horror Vacui is a most terrible thing for a filmmaker with a budget and technology to have!

Practical effects are always so much better...

Couldn't agree more!

Offline Michi

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2017, 01:52:11 PM »
I really like it.

It surprised me.
It surprised me again.
It didn´t stop to surprise me.
That is what I want. Entertainment by something unexpected. Admittedly StarWars causes great expectations. All that youtube theories about characters and stories and backgrounds, internet gossip and trailers were totally misleading to a point I didn´t even listen to it anymore.
I wanted to be surprised.
And I was.

That´s good.

Offline Mick_in_Switzerland

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2017, 02:16:41 PM »
I also liked it.

There were twists and further twists. Many more than normal in Star Wars.

There were some very disturbing things like the slow deliberate shelling of the helpless transports.

There were some strange thinks like that battering ram death star cannon that appeared to make less damage than Mons Meg.

Some parts deviate from the (biblical) canon of Star Wars fans and I can understand that some are upset by that.

Overall, I found it a good film.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 02:18:14 PM by Mick_in_Switzerland »

Offline Mick_in_Switzerland

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2017, 02:18:56 PM »
I also liked it.

There were twists and further twists. Many more than normal in Star Wars.

There were some very disturbing things like the slow deliberate shelling of the helpless transports.

There were some strange thinks like that battering ram death star cannon that appeared to make less damage than Mons Meg.

Some parts deviate from the (biblical) canon of Star Wars fans and I can understand that some are upset by that.

Overall, I found it a good film.


Oh and making terrain for the final battle will be challlenging....
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 02:20:30 PM by Mick_in_Switzerland »

Offline Jagannath

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2017, 04:04:16 PM »
Nothing to add really other than I was relatively disappointed. I will say that Rogue One is now my favourite Star Wars film, so that should tell you where my heads at. I can, in many ways, enjoy relatively naff sci-fi and fantasy for the world building inspiration (even pars of the prequels are ace for that), so I was really really gutted with the Casino scene. That could have been really interesting and clever, instead it was literally a 1920s casino - cufflinks. CUFF. LINKS. There should be no cufflinks in Star Wars.

I did like the look of all the rebels, I did like seeing Ade Edmunson, I actually quite like the Snoke death scene. I don't know what the point of Phasma was (or why she was suddenly 50 feet away in formation with a squad having been stood near the execution). I really enjoyed Luke's island and the shenanigans - I'm a bit of a fan of Taoist texts and stories and this seemed to share that type of humour, but I could have done without the puffin-lemmings ending up on the Falcon. "Chrome dome" made me cringe really bad.

RIP Ackbar, nowhere near dramatic enough.

Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2017, 04:53:07 PM »
That could have been really interesting and clever, instead it was literally a 1920s casino - cufflinks. CUFF. LINKS. There should be no cufflinks in Star Wars.

Ha! Quite! That was very reminiscent of the prequels - all the black tie reminded, somehow, me of that dreadful two-headed pod-racing commentator. The connection, I think, is that these things suddenly seem like a parody of the real world rather than a fully imagined alternative.

One more thought on plot structure: complexity requires coherence. Complex plots can work if they have a very coherent background. But if the rules of the universe are a bit loose, the complexity undermines the setting. I think this happened to Game of Thrones a bit last season: when time and distance seemed to shrink for the convenience of the plot. The Last Jedi suffered from this too.

Online olyreed

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2017, 06:04:14 PM »
I watched it on Sunday and enjoyed it, but over the last couple of days, the film hasn't really sat well with me, storylines that felt wasted or pointless, the Mary Poppins moment really wasn't good, the increase of the force powers didn't feel right, and the Casino stuff felt like an outage of episode 1. I will probably see it again just to see if I am being over critical,

Offline Dr. The Viking

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2017, 06:41:56 PM »
Now it's been a while since I saw it. And I have to admit that I begin to realize that what I am most surprised about is how much I think it deducts from my experience of all of Star Wars - new and old.

I think the magic disappears a little when the old heroes' final destiny is exposed in such a "the die has been cast" -like fashion instead of remaining in the uncertainty of the Return of The Jedi (/ Thrawn saga) ending.
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Offline Captain Blood

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2017, 07:07:16 PM »
Saw it last night. I enjoyed it.

Thought it was a bit overlong, some of the characters a bit too cliched (yes, even for Star Wars) - I detest the Oscar Isaac character. Such a cartoon sketch.  I recognise a lot of the criticisms mentioned above. But there were parts of it I liked a lot too - mainly the depth of character and feeling Mark Hamill and Daisy Ridley managed to cram into their performances. Less so Adam Driver, who is just too spotty, fugly and greasy looking to be a successful baddie IMHO.
And the direct retread of the Vader/ Luke/ Emperor scene with Ren / Rey / Snoke just seemed lazy to me. The reason why it was such a triumph in the original was because you couldn’t see Vader’s face behind the mask. That ultimate conflict of instinct over alliegance worked so much better without the gurning.

But all that said, it was still a great spectacle and very entertaining.
Personally, I think I preferred the previous episode and Rogue One, but this one was worth the ticket price just to see Mark Hamill reprise the same character 40years on. I found it a kind of art imitating life moment, and I think he really delivered. I found his performance and return quite touching. But then, as I remarked to my sons - since I was a teen in 1977 when I first saw the original Star Wars, that character, Luke Skywalker, has been one of the abiding cultural presences in my entire adult life. It’s part of the backdrop to my whole existence. So for me, just weird yet incredible to see the original actor playing the same character, a lifetime apart.

That makes the film a pleasure for me, whatever its other shortcomings  :)


Offline Manchu

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2017, 11:27:33 PM »
I had the impression throughout watching most of the movie that this was some sort of joke or maybe I was having a bad dream.

Offline LeadAsbestos

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2017, 11:57:05 PM »
But then, as I remarked to my sons - since I was a teen in 1977 when I first saw the original Star Wars, that character, Luke Skywalker, has been one of the abiding cultural presences in my entire adult life. It’s part of the backdrop to my whole existence. So for me, just weird yet incredible to see the original actor playing the same character, a lifetime apart.

That makes the film a pleasure for me, whatever its other shortcomings  :)



Well said! I tried to explain this to some folks today who are just getting into Star Wars. I saw A New Hope when I was 6, so it has been with me for my entire life essentially. Hard to explain how much of an influence it has had, ewoks and Jar jar be damned! ::)

Offline Sbloom141

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Re: The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2017, 11:03:05 AM »
I was really disappointed:(

I can suspend disbelief as good as the next guy but the physics in the bombing scene at the beginning were a mess.

I didn’t like the humour, it was inappropriate at times and felt too much like an attempt to ape the Marvel films.

Leia’s space flight was poorly executed but I get why it was there. I’d rather have seen her deflect the torpedo though or some such.

I actually like Snoke’s death scene but I still want to know who he is!

 

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