The LAF star wars discussion thread. SPOILERS!

[The Somnambulist]

I loved it. If you didn't, fair enough.

[nic-e]

I'm gong to see it again soon. I went without telling my girlfriend and now i have to try and act surprised throughout the whole thing. Shouldn't be too hard since nothing really shocking happens...But the thought of sitting through some of the more groan inducing sections again is causing me some regret.

[Storm Wolf]

Hmm. Well, I am not anxious to get into that most pointless activity - an argument on the internet 

Nor am I but I have but two words and they are STAR TREK, at least every other film was mostly good

Beam me up Scotty 

Glen

[The Voivod]

I loved it. If you didn't, fair enough.

You can't agree to disagree on the internet.
That's against the rules....

[Axebreaker]

Disney are doing their very best to destroy Star Wars and everything it represented. This last installment should have been called Spaceballs II or a romp in hyperspace.

So far Disney managed to:

Han Solo- Turn into a washed up failure as a father who abandoned his family to have a good time flying in space thus wiping out everything he learned in the original series of dedication to something more then yourself and in the end his son having so much contempt for him that he took him out with his lightsaber without much of a thought.

Luke Skywalker- The ultimate Jedi who never gave up including bringing back to the light the most evil man to live in the galaxy that being Darth Vader to a bitter hobo rejecting the entire galaxy and the jedi order over considering killing his nephew because he is having some issues with the force therefore completely having him step out of character in doing so. So let's look how some of the the other Jedi Masters died starting with Darth Vader electrocuted in battle, Joda extreme old age, Mace force blown out a window, the Emperor fried, Ben cut down with a lightsaber all respectable ways to go, but Luke..... to die from stress WTF!

Chewi- Is now a vegan and prop along with ARtD2 and CEE3PO.

Leia- Mary Poppins of the force who is the leader of the rebels who always seems to make the same decision....run. In fact everything has turned out so well under her that the entire resistance(not rebels anymore ) can fit in one ship.

So in needlessly destroying the old star wars pantheon what are we left with?

Ray- The ultimate Mary Sue that we still after 2 films know nothing about other then that in addition to being a crack shot, mechanic and pilot she is also an amazing Jedi warrior and is so good in fact that Jedi Master Luke didn't even need to train her after seeing her amazing lightsaber skills or even instruct her in the use of the force as she's already apparently a master herself. Oh and I guess her parents are nobody's so no need to fill in a background for her.

Finn- A trooper reluctant to kill that goes on a killing frenzy aboard Snokes ship. Other then that he's an ex storm trooper that we know very little about.

Poe- Hot shot pilot who's supposed to fill solo's boots but totally lacks the stage presence.

Kylo- Hands down the worst dark apprentice ever and so bad I felt I could pick up a lightsaber and thump him. Your not supposed to feel that way. He's supposed to look unbeatable until he miraculously is beaten and that is totally missing.

Snoke- Supreme Leader from where? There he is folks and there he goes….

At this point there is no connection to the characters in the films. Instead of feeling how could Ray and the rebels win we are left feeling how could they not win against Kylobieber and inept clowns from the first order.

I could go on but I feel I made a point. They could have created a new star wars trilogy for the new generation without destroying the old like Rogue one which was excellent, but their blatant need to destroy the old SW pantheon in the series would not allow that resulting in a couple of soulless bad films each one progressively worse then the other. As far as episode 9 goes I could care less as there is nothing to care about.

Christopher

[Manchu]

Please keep the sexism card in the deck.

"Mary Sue" is probably not technically the correct term. Over the last two years, I have heard and read countless accusations that Rey is a Mary Sue and most people who say so don't seem to actually object to her being powerful. Rather, they object to the lack of explanation as to why she is powerful.

Certain lines in Episode VIII imply that the Force "awoke" inside of Rey so dramatically (quickly, strongly) in order to balance out on the good guy end of the spectrum over and against the darkness of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.

Problem is, nothing in previous SW movies indicates this is how the Force works and the new movies also don't explain it. Even if this is how the Force works (although the question of why it works that way is still an issue) that still wouldn't explain why Rey, as opposed to any other of trillions of beings in the galaxy, would be the chosen one.

Rey is (supposed to be) the primary protagonist of both films, so the issues of who she is, why she's the way she is, and why we should care about her are ... well, to say "important" would be an understatement. These questions were specifically raised in The Force Awakens - and equally specifically not answered.

At the time, this was a transparently cyncial move to bait audiences to see Episode VIII - sort of like ending the movie without a word between Rey and Luke. Two years later and Disney is still baiting us.

In contrast, the first SW movie showed us how a seeming nobody hayseed like Luke dreamed about being part of something greater, found out he might have a greater destiny, initially turn away from that destiny, then find the motivation to forge ahead. This was all in the first act of a single film. Establishing that groundwork not only helped the audience understand, related to, and care about Luke in the rest of that movie but also set up meaningful moments in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

By the time Rey is going toe to toe with Kylo at the end of The Force Awakens, it's not clear why she can do so. And that hurts an otherwise strong scene. Unfortunately, The Last Jedi doesn't clearly deal with the question, either, kicking it down the road to the final installment. But it may already be too late to really care about her character. Even the script of The Last Jedi seems bored with Rey by the end, shifting focus entirely away from her to Kylo Ren and Luke.

*And nobody describes Ripley as a Mary Sue because Ripley is believably competent in Alien and Aliens thanks to adequate characterization.

[The Voivod]

I get that some people are dissappointed that Rey's heritage is not important, but I'm actually glad they did it.
I think it's natural anyone with her history would have questions and they shouldn't all be answhered with "you come from a great lineage".

This choice made the galaxy a lot bigger. It doesn't all revolve around the Skywalkers.
It allso would've made no sense that anyone important would've let their heir to fend for themself on such a harsh planet.

Snoke gets the same complaint, but I feel that that should've been adressed.
I've hear the argument made that we didn't really know anything about the emperor, but we didn't have real questions yet about what happened in between two filmseries.
I'm fine with Kylo killing him, but this would've been more dramatic if he'd been build up a bit more.

[dinohunterpoa]

I could go on but I feel I made a point. They could have created a new star wars trilogy for the new generation without destroying the old like Rogue one which was excellent, but their blatant need to destroy the old SW pantheon in the series would not allow that resulting in a couple of soulless bad films each one progressively worse then the other. As far as episode 9 goes I could care less as there is nothing to care about.

Christopher

Blame Kathleen Kennedy and her years of resentment and personal issues with George Lucas. Now that she's in a position of absolute power, she uses it to destroy everything he created with impunity, because it's known that the money will keep flowing in huge numbers despite the overall quality of the new films.  

[Axebreaker]

Please keep the sexism card in the deck.

"Mary Sue" is probably not technically the correct term. Over the last two years, I have heard and read countless accusations that Rey is a Mary Sue and most people who say so don't seem to actually object to her being powerful. Rather, they object to the lack of explanation as to why she is powerful.

Exactly.

If anyone is to blame for Rey being described by many to include myself as a Mary Sue then I lay that at the feet of Disney, because that's the impression they have given her. She can do it all with little or no training. However, that said I did not just single out Rey, but basically what they did with virtually all characters and plot lines. Disney has managed to turn star wars into a parody.

As far as strong woman I have no issues with that as Ridley , Jyn Erso etc. because they were believable within story they were put in as they were given character development and thus they were made plausible while none of that is happening with Rey. Ray has never gone through any kind of trial and error or learning process in both films, but rather just seems to be able to do it and better then anyone else. Why??

Christopher

[dinohunterpoa]

Disney has managed to turn star wars into a parody.

Exactly!

[The Voivod]

Did anyone notice that in the original star wars, a farmhand took on an entire battle station worth of professional soldiers?
And he was the one of the few survivors of a near suicidal attack on said battle station after being handed what ammounts to the keys of a F1-car because he's a mean hand on his Vespa back home?

Or that he stood toe-to-toe with the dark lord of the sith while most of his lightsaber training didn't even have the luxury of a youtube tutorial?

I'm not saying the new films are perfect. I thought TLJ could have been a lot better, but I don't get the Mary-Sue.

Star-wars has always been a kids fantasy and a large part of it's fandom is has always made fun of it's inconsitensies.

[Axebreaker]

Did anyone notice that in the original star wars, a farmhand took on an entire battle station worth of professional soldiers?
And he was the one of the few survivors of a near suicidal attack on said battle station after being handed what ammounts to the keys of a F1-car because he's a mean hand on his Vespa back home?

Sure....ignore the other half dozen hero's and professional soldiers that helped him all of which were essential to Luke succeeding.

Or that he stood toe-to-toe with the dark lord of the sith while most of his lightsaber training didn't even have the luxury of a youtube tutorial?

Actually no he trained both with Ben and Yoda as shown on screen and had to perform some difficult tasks. Need I remind you what happened to Luke when he decided to take on Papa Vader before his training was complete. Vader kicked Luke's behind from one side of the Death Star to the other without breaking a sweat lopping off his hand in one of the most agonizing screams on film!
Need a visual of the beaten and battered Luke as a reminder:

I'm not saying the new films are perfect. I thought TLJ could have been a lot better, but I don't get the Mary-Sue.

They are not just bad films, but have an agenda to destroy the old SW. Luke took 3 films before he was good enough to face down Vader and learn how to master the force and Rey did this all in the first film and imho and many others she is a Mary Sue. At this point I'm cheering for Kylo because Rey looks unbeatable and that is just plain wrong that I feel that way, but thanks to Disney I do. However to be honest I don't really care because their is no reason to.

If Rey had been a man I would have been just as critical and called him "Superman Ray" or some such thing, but it was woman and Mary Sue fit the box  imho.

Star-wars has always been a kids fantasy and a large part of it's fandom is has always made fun of it's inconsitensies

.

Very true, but the original series showed commitment to friends, family, dedication and hard work pays off, but I see very little of that here.

Christopher

[The Voivod]

Sure....ignore the other half dozen hero's and professional soldiers that helped him all of which were essential to Luke succeeding.

No rebel soldiers on board the deathstar.
And still no rationilisation of why you'd let a farmboy fly a fighter into combat because he can fly cropduster.

Actually no he trained both with Ben and Yoda as shown on screen

I know Hyperspace travel is kinda wonky, but he got like 5 minutes worth of training that we saw from Ben and they only time he drew a saber on Dagobah was when Yoda told him not to.
No matter how many time passed between empire and jedi, he had no official training in between and handed Vader his ass in the end.

Luke took 3 films before he was good enough to face down Vader and learn how to master the force and Rey did this all in the first film

Rey managed a mindtrick she heard from in the legends and fought a wounded student of the dark side. Not a sith lord.

If Rey had been a man I would have been just as critical and called him "Superman Ray" or some such thing, but it was woman and Mary Sue fit the box  imho

Not bothered by that. Mary Sue is a uni-sex name as far as I'm considered. Wesley Crusher seems t be considerd one of the worst offenders.

Very true, but the original series showed commitment to friends, family, dedication and hard work pays off, but I see very little of that here

I can really put both Luke and Han in a pretty bad light, but we love the films we grew up with and give them a lot of slack.
I just think that I, for one, might end up give the new trilogy some of the same..

I'm not telling you to like them and I can imagine you feel dissappointed, but when Star wars first came out, it was unique and grand.
We've been smacked with big budget sc-fi movies for decades now and I don't think they'll ever be able to capture the magic of our childhood.

[Storm Wolf]

I haven't seen this one yet and probably won`t until I can see it for free, or rather more cheaply.

But I thought the first one was a bit hokey, which is why I didn't see this one. Quite liked Rogue One though.

However I suspect these newer films and the 3 prequels will join my list of films that do not exist in my frame of reference such as:

Highlander 2+
Aliens 3+
Most odd numbered Star Trek fims
Die Hard 3+
Lethal Weapon 3+
Terminator 3+, although didn't mind Genysis strangely

You can see how this works, right

I suspect the current rash of Aliens prequels will fall in to this category, but time will tell

Saves all the mental effort of disliking them

Each to their own

Glen

P.S. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all you Lead People out there!

[Elbows]

Completely unrelated, but one of the later Die Hard's was quite good The one with the hacker kid.