15th Century Byzantine Flags?

[HappyChappy439]

Hi!

After Atheling's thread on the appearance of the Palaiologan Byzantines in the mid-15th century ( https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=124624.0 ) , I've been doing some thinking about trying to put together some Byzantines of my own!

But I've gotten a bit indecisive about what sort of flags/banners to use with them! Do we know if there are any sources around the sort of flags that would be used in the 15th century by either the Byzantines in Constantinople, the Despotate of the Morea or the Empire of Trebizond?

There's the obvious Tetragrammatic Cross, and double-headed Eagles, but are there any others that would be in use? I assume generic flags would be mostly colourful stripes (blue/white, black/white for Trebizond, red/yellow), or Russian-style religious icons, but is that correct for the 15th century?

Similarly, would shields be a similar sort of non-heraldic colourful patterning? (Like later Stratioti?)

[Atheling]

I think you can probably guess what I'm going to say...... 

I haven't got a clue! I would certainly be very interested in finding out.

Moldavia, Wallachia, Hungary and Serbia did develop a defined heraldry so it would be interesting to see if that had spread to Constantinople and the surrounding territories.

[Eoin OCnaimhsi]

Currently listening to The History of Byzantium podcast by Robin Pierson, having gotten through the History of Rome podcast also(which was enthralling).

The later period is to be honest too tragic for me to put together an army for.

[OB]

I'd chance an icon or two.  The Byzantines had used them in a previous period and Christianity remained a major part of their political identity.

[Hunlion]

Two flags and transfers here...  https://www.schildschmie.de/

Hunlion

[bluewillow]

I suspect the eagle banners and iconographic banners, plus small pennants, I will have a look through my collection of books.

Cheers
Matt

[bluewillow]

Looking at the art and heraldry

A good article here
https://www.hubert-herald.nl/ByzantiumArms.htm


John VIII


Constantine XI Palaiologos









My nephew loves the period and I will ask him
https://pceldran.wordpress.com/page/2/

Cheers
Matt

[Atheling]

Brilliant stuff Matt- you've done it again! 

[Jericho]

Maybe you can adapt some of the coat of arms found here:

Wappenwiki

[Anderson Collection]

 HP439

This is my take on some of the flags taken from various searches.

Willie

[Captain Harlock]

Ι wouldnt use Theophilos (the painter) as a source. As for family heraldry, there wasnt in the western european sense. What existed was mainly of frankish influence. There were state flags and during the 9-10th centuries there were specific army unit banners etc. Im going to search through my sources and see what I can find for you.

[Captain Harlock]

Οk your best bet is this
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yzfaNt0B7-W5IV9HXx-hgcwRBgQv8Uce/view
Its a reasearch by a professor of Theology, its in greek by I guess google translate could help. Its an effort to document late Roman family heraldry and banners, but Im warning you there is not concrete proof so dont take all this as a matter of fact.
If you need any help with the language just ask.

[Anderson Collection]

That's put together very well a lot of the images are what I used for my flags but really good to see them all in one place.

[HappyChappy439]

Oh wow! Thanks for the help everyone! Really helpful references!

And thanks for the link to the PDF @Captain Harlock! Definitely gives me an excuse to dust off my Greek 

(Also, I wasn't aware of a rebellion in the Pontus in the 1470s! I know Uzun Hasan was at war with the Ottomans at that time, but I figured that was his own thing, rather than any specific pro-Komnenos goal! Do we know if the Alexios Komnenos mentioned there has any evidence?)

[Atheling]

Yeah, I'd like to add my thanks to Mr Anderson and Captain Harlock.

That pdf will come in very useful indeed.