The germ of a project: unconventional Middle-earth armies (a switch to 15mm!)

[tikitang]

Harad are Barbary pirates

Corsairs of Umbar are more akin to Barbary Pirates.

I'd have Harad as Turks and Easterlings as further east, like Afghans or Chinese.

[jon_1066]

Corsairs of Umbar are more akin to Barbary Pirates.

I'd have Harad as Turks and Easterlings as further east, like Afghans or Chinese.

Good call.  Chinese style figures would make cool Easterlings.  Pagan Rus also look good for something.

[Byrthnoth]

I think that the interesting thing about the art in Hobgoblin's first post is that the artists all seem to be from outside the Anglosphere. They were likely working from Tolkien's texts 'fresh' and without some/all of the cultural assumptions that English readers in the mid-20th century would have brought to the books, and as a result they produced some very unique interpretations of the material. It would be interesting to know whether the illustrators were working from the original English or translations.

Trying to bring fresh eyes to Tolkien is why I like Hobgoblin's rule 2 of using just the text of LotR or the Hobbit alone as a basis for the project, as it opens the door for some creative and fun stuff. Sure it arguably disregards what Tolkien 'meant' in some letter to his publisher or draft of the Silmarillion, but who cares? It's a New Criticism approach to building HotT armies.

I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations. It seems kinds of limiting, and it more often than not leads to a "good guys: white, bad guys: non-white" formulation. Also, it usually seems like a reaction to the Peter Jackson films and a desire for a more 'accurate' or 'authentic' depiction of Middle Earth (which is fair!) but often is no more reflective of what Tolkien wrote, even if using historical figures gives it a veneer of being more realistic somehow.

[Porsenna]

I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations. It seems kinds of limiting, and it more often than not leads to a "good guys: white, bad guys: non-white" formulation. Also, it usually seems like a reaction to the Peter Jackson films and a desire for a more 'accurate' or 'authentic' depiction of Middle Earth (which is fair!) but often is no more reflective of what Tolkien wrote, even if using historical figures gives it a veneer of being more realistic somehow.

I think it's inescapable though - while certain large aspects of Tolkien world building are wonderfully unique, there are also vast overarching themes that are pulled straight out of the histories he was using as a model. And while nothing is exactly 1:1, considering that Tolkien by his own admission didn't have a clear mental image of arms, armor or material culture, the best that can be done to get an 'accurate' or 'realistic' look is to look at the cultures and civilizations he was modeling from.

That's not to say there need to be transverse crested Gondorian Centurions running about (Though that is quite an image, isn't it?) only that you might as well start from the same place he started from, and start extrapolating from there.

[DivisMal]

Some very unique interpretations you dug out Hobgoblin. I kinda like them for being so much different from Peter Jackson‘s movies. Will be very interested to see where this is going.

When you go for the Polish Hussars as Swan Knights, it might be worth going at least that far from the expectations with your other armies.

For instance Landsknechts kitbashes with axes for Easterlings (long beards, heavy axes).
Maybe look for Forest Indian plastic kits (don‘t know if they exist) for Elves…just stay away from the Dark Ages approach everyone is using.

[Major_Gilbear]

Trying to bring fresh eyes to Tolkien is why I like Hobgoblin's rule 2 of using just the text of LotR or the Hobbit alone as a basis for the project, as it opens the door for some creative and fun stuff. Sure it arguably disregards what Tolkien 'meant' in some letter to his publisher or draft of the Silmarillion, but who cares? It's a New Criticism approach to building HotT armies.

I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations. It seems kinds of limiting, and it more often than not leads to a "good guys: white, bad guys: non-white" formulation. Also, it usually seems like a reaction to the Peter Jackson films and a desire for a more 'accurate' or 'authentic' depiction of Middle Earth (which is fair!) but often is no more reflective of what Tolkien wrote, even if using historical figures gives it a veneer of being more realistic somehow.

When you go for the Polish Hussars as Swan Knights, it might be worth going at least that far from the expectations with your other armies.

For instance Landsknechts kitbashes with axes for Easterlings (long beards, heavy axes).
Maybe look for Forest Indian plastic kits (don‘t know if they exist) for Elves…just stay away from the Dark Ages approach everyone is using.

Whilst I agree that it would be nice to have an "alternative" view of the established appearances of the various kingdoms of men and the other races, I think that moving it too far away from the inspirations that Tolkein himself drew from risks the end result looking and being any old generic fantasy rather than something that is "recognisably" LotR.

To use a couple of examples of what I mean:

1) You could use Warhammer models for most of the equivalent races, and leave out anything too weird/magical/high-tech. There's nothing really to say that GW Orcs are wrong, and you can paint them whatever colours you wish. Ditto many of the other races/armies. The problem is that it will look like Warhammer, and not LotR.

2) You could use Skaven with their tails removed and the more specific iconography removed as Orcs/Goblins. They could "fit" according to the second criteria:

2. What's outwith the particular source work doesn't matter. So, for example, the orcs at the Battle of the Five Armies wouldn't have to be smaller than humans because nothing in The Hobbit indicates that. But it's a different matter at the Pelennor because LotR's text makes the size difference clear. In essence, the project is an illustration of the book in question, not of Tolkien's wider 'universe'.

But the problem is that most/all people looking at them would not think they look like Orcs/goblins at all unless you told them specifically that they are. It's a similar problem if you were to put Gnoll heads and arms onto Dwarf torsos and legs; you end up with squat, ugly, swarthy creatures, who could certainly "fit" as being Orcs according to some of the more limited descriptions, but would not really be all that recognisable as such to most people (and when I say that, I am even allowing for those who may have read the books but not seen the films).

Several of the images in the first post don't really look particularly specific (to me) as being LotR; they could be anything really.
That's not to say that they are "right" or "wrong", only that some design coherency applied to any make-believe world is common because it helps to solidify what the author is trying to present to their readers. Whilst many descriptions are less detailed than some would like, Tolkien nonetheless draws from known inspirations/imagery, and follows many conventional story-telling tropes (deliberately too, I might add) in order to convey certain imagery to his audience. Any "fresh" view or interpretation would therefore really need to keep in mind that too much subversion from those established baselines would end up with something less LotR and more generic/derivative (or Warhammer-esque I suppose).

It may be that's exactly what Hobgoblin wants from this project, but a further limitation is likely to be that as a miniatures-based endeavour he will probably need to work from existing models/kits to a greater extent. That's one reason people are suggesting historical kits for the various human races I think.

[tikitang]

Good call.  Chinese style figures would make cool Easterlings.  Pagan Rus also look good for something.

That was my first thought, actually -- Kievan Rus for Easterlings, though they're perhaps not "swarthy" enough, which would break Hobgoblin's Rule #1. Though I suppose the level of "swarthiness" is determined by the paint, rather than the miniatures themselves.

[robh]

I'm not sure I quite follow you here. I mean, a burly, bearded Gollum, bearded or shaggy Orcs, and wolf/bear-like trolls are all quite different from the conventions of most contemporary Tolkien illustrators, surely? As is a six-legged Smaug!

Agreed absolutely, they are "Unconventional" for sure.

My point is that the majority of people here who are building armies for LotR are following a "true to text" interpretation of the books. As far as LAF is concerned that is the convention. Do it like it should be not like New Line did it.

I thought (hoped) you wanted to break that convention and look at a totally different style as depicted in the pictures you posted, which are not Lord of the Rings as either Jackson, or Tolkien himself, envisaged it.

[Hobgoblin]

Interesting discussion! I'll return to this later today, but just a couple of quick points ...

1) You could use Warhammer models for most of the equivalent races, and leave out anything too weird/magical/high-tech. There's nothing really to say that GW Orcs are wrong, and you can paint them whatever colours you wish. Ditto many of the other races/armies. The problem is that it will look like Warhammer, and not LotR.

GW Orcs do have a clear lineage from Tolkien (bow legs, big heads, long arms, curved swords, etc.). They're a bit big for LotR, but they'd work fine for The Hobbit. An army with Ironjawz as the bodyguard of Bolg could look really good, for example.

2) You could use Skaven with their tails removed and the more specific iconography removed as Orcs/Goblins. They could "fit" according to the second criteria:But the problem is that most/all people looking at them would not think they look like Orcs/goblins at all unless you told them specifically that they are. It's a similar problem if you were to put Gnoll heads and arms onto Dwarf torsos and legs; you end up with squat, ugly, swarthy creatures, who could certainly "fit" as being Orcs according to some of the more limited descriptions, but would not really be all that recognisable as such to most people (and when I say that, I am even allowing for those who may have read the books but not seen the films).

I reckon that any first-time reader of The Hobbit would have no objection to ratlike goblins in accompanying illustrations. One could stage the Battle of the Five Armies with D&D kobolds as the goblins (gnolls as the bodyguard of Bolg), and it could look pretty good! I'll certainly be using gnoll arms on dwarf bodies in this project.

And the chap on the left here (Grishnakh? The Brothers Hildebrandt seem to have put the Eye of Sauron on their Isengarders) isn't a million miles away from a gnoll head and arms on a dwarf body. (The Hidlebrandts' stuff isn't really my cup of tea, but it was certainly popular in its day.). Actually, while the snout contradicts the textual decscription of flat faces, you could make a strong case that that Hildebrandt orc is at least as close or closer to Tolkien's descriptions of Grisnakh than Peter Jackson's Uruk-hai are to the textual descriptions of the Isengarders ...

[Hobgoblin]

I thought (hoped) you wanted to break that convention and look at a totally different style as depicted in the pictures you posted, which are not Lord of the Rings as either Jackson, or Tolkien himself, envisaged it.

That's certainly the plan!

[Major_Gilbear]

I'll certainly be using gnoll arms on dwarf bodies in this project.

Well, I was specific about the parts in my example, since I had a suspicion the suggestion would in fact appeal to you!   

As for the GW/Skaven comments... Yes, I realise that they are both passable as "Orcs", but I would question whether they would really be "LotR Orcs", or would everyone who looks at them feel differently? I mean, even disregarding PJ/Weta's vision of what Orcs are. I think either the appearance of the various races needs to be sufficiently removed from the usual that they stand on their own, to allow a new association to be made from them back to LotR, or they need to be more obviously tied to LotR in such a way that you wouldn't need to explain it to people. Anything else in between is basically either what already exists, or is a derivative generic fantasy, just like Warhammer, or Warcraft, or whatever else. Again, all IMO, of course. 

[Major_Gilbear]

Apologies for the double post, but it's just occurred to me that the Frostgrave Demons kit could potentially be a really good source of parts for this project too. Even the heads, with horns trimmed off, could be used. The digitigrade legs may be less useful than the regular legs in the kit, but the torsos, arms, heads, and weapons would all be interesting to use.

[Hobgoblin]

Well, I was specific about the parts in my example, since I had a suspicion the suggestion would in fact appeal to you!   

Quite right! Actually, the gnoll arms on short bodies provide a book-faithful aspect that many adaptations miss: the Uruks of Mordor have long arms hanging almost to the ground (and the Isengarders have long arms too - they're mentioned at Helm's Deep).

As for the GW/Skaven comments... Yes, I realise that they are both passable as "Orcs", but I would question whether they would really be "LotR Orcs", or would everyone who looks at them feel differently? I mean, even disregarding PJ/Weta's vision of what Orcs are. I think either the appearance of the various races needs to be sufficiently removed from the usual that they stand on their own, to allow a new association to be made from them back to LotR, or they need to be more obviously tied to LotR in such a way that you wouldn't need to explain it to people. Anything else in between is basically either what already exists, or is a derivative generic fantasy, just like Warhammer, or Warcraft, or whatever else. Again, all IMO, of course. 

I don't think Skaven would pass muster as Orcs in LotR (using my rule 2), but they would work for The Hobbit, where all we really learn about Orcs is that they have flat feet and are ugly (and their leader has a huge head). And ditto with GW Orcs - they're too big for LotR, but good for the Five Armies.

What I mean here is that if someone like (say) my mother were to read The Hobbit again and then look at a Five Armies game using Skaven or GW Orcs as goblins, I doubt she'd be at all nonplussed. After all, animal-headed goblins are nothing new (see Rosetti's Goblin Market). And again, I don't think a reader new to the book would be disconcerted by Skaven/D&D kobolds/gnoll lookalikes in accompanying illustrations.

And yes, thanks, I've got the Frostgrave demons on the cutting mat - chiefly for the arms and heads. The horns can be 'read' as part of the helmets in some cases. For LotR, they're a bit tall and straight-legged, but there's lots of kitbashing potential there. Have you seen the examples on the Iron Mitten blog?

And, actually, for the Battle of the Five Armies, the demons could be used horns and all! What, ultimately, are goblins but minor demons? I'm almost tempted to think about doing both projects ...

[Hobgoblin]

An interesting take on Orcs from Peter Klúcik:



Much more here!

[Hobgoblin]

I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 1:1 mapping of historical cultures onto Middle Earth nations.

I tend to agree with this - not least because Tolkien's descriptions of people don't seem to map in that way. Take the Haradrim for example: they wear lots of gold, warpaint, red robes and brazen corselets of scale mail. They use iconography (the serpent) rather than abstract designs, and they ride elephants. I might be showing my ignorance, but I don't think there's any 1:1 historical analogue.

It's the same with the axe-wielding, long-bearded Easterlings. On the "book-faithful Easterlings" thread, I suggested a Scythian look, and I might go with my idea of using Victrix Dacians with added axes for a vaguely Scythian appearance, but DivisMal's landsknecht suggestion is a great one (and I have lots of Warlord landsknecht bits lying around).

I've just had a lunchtime experiment with Mantic goblin bodies and Frostgrave demon heads; the latter fit even better than the ungor ones ...