Tolkien for Dragon Rampant,how are you defining creatures etc

[tradgardmastre]

I wondered how people had defined the Nazgul,Ringwraiths,Uruk Hai etc for Dragon Rampant?

[Sunjester]

Funny enough, I've just been thinking about the same thing.

So far I've just been looking at the assorted orcs and haven't thought about more powerful things like Nazgul yet.

One thing is, do you judge the stats by the actual figure, or what it is representing in Middle Earth? Most orc models are substantially larger than their book equivalent. I've decided to go with how they are represented in the actual books, ignoring their relative size to standard men.

So I am thinking so far:

Orc chieftain/leader with bodyguard, Heavy offensive foot.

Large orcs
If access to good armouries (Mordor Uruks, Isengard Uruk-hai etc) either Heavy offensive foot or Bellicose foot with Shiny Armour.

Otherwise, Bellicose foot

Soldier orcs ("average" sized orcs), Light offensive foot, can be mixed weapons.

Snaga (little orcs), Light offensive foot and Fearful, can be mixed weapons.

Possibly have the odd unit of Orc archers, Scouts.

[Hobgoblin]

The key thing about uruks seems to be that they're undersized heavy infantry that can move at great speed. So I think Bellicose Foot with the Shiny Armour upgrade is probably best. One problem, though, is that both Mordor and Isengard uruks seem to carry bows as a matter of course. So they're fast, undersized, aggressive heavy infantry, but also archers.

My somewhat complicated solution would be to use Bellicose Foot with the armour upgrade, but also give them the Mixed Weapons upgrade available to Light Foot. I'd also allow them to attempt a Shoot action if they don't Wild Charge enemies in a given turn - and allow a Leader to influence the Wild Charge activation negatively by one point (to reflect the likes of Ugluk trying to impose some discipline on them). I'd balance this by having all orcs (including uruks but excluding the man-sized half-orcs in Saruman's armies) suffering a -1 penalty to hit when attacking a Wall of Spears/Schiltron; the Battle of the Fords of the Isen describes how the Isengard orcs are ineffective against the Rohirrim shield wall. So uruks would only hit on a 4 against a Wall of Spears.

A simpler solution would just be to assume that arrow fire is factored into their attack and defence, but I think that doesn't quite fit, given the poor defence of Bellicose Foot. And remember how they killed Boromir. As the Wild Charge allows them only 4" of effective archery range, I don't think the Mixed Weapons upgrade would be overpowered - and it would be balanced by the penalty against formations - so it could perhaps just be a one-point upgrade for a total of 7 points.

For the half-orcs of Saruman, Elite Foot is a perfect fit: "ferocious, mail-clad, armed with axes".

I'd probably keep the likes of Bolg's bodyguard the same as the uruk-hai; Bolg's guards (and Bolg himself) were pretty clearly uruks.

I also think that the distinction in Tolkien tends to be between "big" orcs (uruks) and "small" ones (snaga). The "medium" category appears to be an invention of gamers (Merp, etc). All orcs, including uruks, were sufficiently smaller than Men for it to make a difference in combat. For the smaller types, I'd use the Light Offensive Foot and Scout profiles, as Sunjester suggests. I'd apply the -1 against Walls of Spears in both cases, but give the Light Offensive Foot mixed weapons for 1 point.

To bulk out an orcish warband, I'd allow an unlimited amount of Ravenous Horde units, to represent the most unwilling levies of the smallest orcs.

For wolfriders, I'd use the Lesser Warbeasts and Light Riders profiles (probably more the former than the latter). Although wolfriders tend to be represented as Hun-type mounted archers, they seem to have been fast-moving combat troops for the most part.

[Vermis]

Can't argue too much with the orc discussion.

For 'ringwraiths' (horse-mounted FotR nazgûl incarnations, so to speak) whether a single rider or more, I think I'd go with heavy riders rather than elite. I don't know how well sneaking round the Shire represents typical ringwraith behaviour in battle, but they didn't seem to go in for many wild charges and such. I'd say the encounter at the gates of Minas Tirith and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields bear that out: they're there to spur on the rabble and spread fear among the goody-goodies, for the most part.
Also, it gives you more wiggle room for fantastical rules. Fear, natch. Also blessed (cursed) weapons and perhaps mystical armour. Or fear and venomous.

For 'fellbeast' nazgûl I'd consider lesser warbeast rather than greater, for the same reasons. Flame/spore attack to represent darts (though I understand there's some debate about that); fear; flying.

[Hobgoblin]

Can't argue too much with the orc discussion.

For 'ringwraiths' (horse-mounted FotR nazgûl incarnations, so to speak) whether a single rider or more, I think I'd go with heavy riders rather than elite. I don't know how well sneaking round the Shire represents typical ringwraith behaviour in battle, but they didn't seem to go in for many wild charges and such. I'd say the encounter at the gates of Minas Tirith and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields bear that out: they're there to spur on the rabble and spread fear among the goody-goodies, for the most part.
Also, it gives you more wiggle room for fantastical rules. Fear, natch. Also blessed (cursed) weapons and perhaps mystical armour. Or fear and venomous.

For 'fellbeast' nazgûl I'd consider lesser warbeast rather than greater, for the same reasons. Flame/spore attack to represent darts (though I understand there's some debate about that); fear; flying.

That all makes sense - with the Flame/Spore attack neatly removing the Wild Charge.

I even wonder whether horse-mounted Nazgul might even be Light Riders tooled up with a load of fantastical upgrades. Their physical forms seem to be rather frail, but their power lies elsewhere.

One other point I meant to make regarding Orcs and armour/weapons: they seem, as a species, to be pretty good at making arms and armour. The Hobbit has a few lines on Orcish inventiveness (suggesting that they may have invented some sorts of gunpowder weapons):

"Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions have always delighted them ..."

In "The Battle of the Fords of the Isen", Tolkien notes that the only metal armour made in Isengard was made for and by the Orcs (the Dunlendings were unarmoured, though the half-orcs wore - presumably Orcish - mail). So, in line with The Hobbit, Orcs seem to have been more technologically sophisticated than some Men.

It's also worth noting that the Orcs of the Misty Mountains seem to have been as well armoured as any other kind:

"Bilbo blinked, and then suddenly he saw the goblins: goblins in full armour with drawn swords sitting just inside the door ..."

"Whistles blew, armour clashed, swords rattled, goblins cursed and swore and ran hither and thither, falling over one another and getting very angry."

Accordingly, I think that the idea that Orcs were somehow "primitive" is misplaced. They seem, rather, to have been technologically sophisticated, especially in metalwork. Again, I think the notion of "tribal" Orcs, with shamans and whatnot, comes from gaming rather than Tolkien.

[Humorous_Conclusion]

I'd be inclined to represent mounted Ringwraiths as light riders, as they're not particularly hand to hand combatants, but give them the fear and wizardling abilities (using the "Almighty Prod", "Banish Fear" and "Befuddle thee" spells to represent the fear they inspire in friends and enemies alike.

[mdauben]

I'd be inclined to represent mounted Ringwraiths as light riders, as they're not particularly hand to hand combatants, but give them the fear and wizardling abilities (using the "Almighty Prod", "Banish Fear" and "Befuddle thee" spells to represent the fear they inspire in friends and enemies alike.

I agree with this.  After all, Aragorn was able to drive off five(?) of them single handed at Weathertop.  Admittedly Aragorn is a powerful hero but I think this goes to show the Ringwraiths, particularly at this point, we're more sources of fear and terror than powerful fighters.

[Vermis]

That all makes sense - with the Flame/Spore attack neatly removing the Wild Charge.

Convenient, innit?

On light riders: point! Though like I said, would it be entirely the same behaviour if they were in 'battle mode', leading a troop of orcs or whatnot?

I'm tempted to take ringwraiths as light rider wizardlings now, though. If I could just find orc minis that I like...

[Hobgoblin]

On light riders: point! Though like I said, would it be entirely the same behaviour if they were in 'battle mode', leading a troop of orcs or whatnot?

That's a good point. Might you reflect that by "amping up" whatever unit they are in to Elite and adding the Wizardling or Spellcaster rules? So, the Witch-King with whatever cavalry rode with him from Morgul might be Elite Riders, while he might make an uruk guard Elite Foot + magic rules.

I'm tempted to take ringwraiths as light rider wizardlings now, though. If I could just find orc minis that I like...

I'm slowly assembling some Tolkienesque orc warbands by using a complete mix of Asgard, Chronicle (the old, diminutive black orcs and the slottabased cave goblins), Ral Partha (the giant goblins/orcs/half-orcs plus their smaller kin) and any other odds and ends that look suitable (a Reider Design one, for example). I've just about got a six-strong group of Chronicle wolfriders, which I think are fairly appropriate for Middle Earth: really big, nasty wolves with small, well-equipped and nasty-looking riders. Because all of the orcs that I'm using are appropriately small, they fit together fairly well, despite big differences in physique. The uruks will be mainly Ral Partha giant goblins and the larger Asgard specimens, plus perhaps some of the Chronicle cave goblins.

[Vermis]

Not too much of the old Asgard and Chronicle ranges knocking about these days, as far as I can see. Of the orcs at Ral Partha Europe, I think I like what they call 'gargantua' orcs most, but while I don't know the exact size, they do look fairly gargantuan. About human-height? Some old Grenadier goblins at Mirliton look promising, but some of the long wigs and green Punch faces remind me more of F.L. Baum than J.R.R. Tolkien.

Yeah, too picky.

After the descriptions and Gangleri's pic in the Book-faithful topic* (and watching a few seasons of Monkey Life on TV) I'm thinking chimps and other apes and monkeys might be a decent starting point, physically, for M-E orcs. Might do something about it, but as some here could attest, it might take a while.

*Maybe better to take this line back there, though, and read it again.

[Hobgoblin]

Not too much of the old Asgard and Chronicle ranges knocking about these days, as far as I can see.

All of the Asgard ones are still produced by Viking Forge, I think.

There are a lot of Chronicle wolfriders and the like knocking about on eBay. I've gone from a solitary 80s survivor to a full DR unit of six wolfriders without spending more than £3 a piece. As I remember them costing £1.25 each in the mid-80s, I think that's not too bad.

Of the orcs at Ral Partha Europe, I think I like what they call 'gargantua' orcs most, but while I don't know the exact size, they do look fairly gargantuan. About human-height? Some old Grenadier goblins at Mirliton look promising, but some of the long wigs and green Punch faces remind me more of F.L. Baum than J.R.R. Tolkien.

I'd agree on the Grenadier goblins: they're not nearly as good as Nick Lund's old cave goblins.

The Ral Partha ones I meant are the Tom Meier ones. The giant goblins (like the one in the attached photo) are smaller than human-sized, but significantly bigger than their smaller peers in the same range and very strong-looking: I'm pretty sure they were designed with Tolkien's uruks in mind. Most of them are ape-like and slouching in posture. I think you can get some of them from Ral Partha Europe; Ironwind rereleased them this year too. There are also a lot of slightly later Ral Partha (mid/late-80s rather than late-70s) orcs by (I think) Sandra Garritty that fit in well with them.

After the descriptions and Gangleri's pic in the Book-faithful topic* (and watching a few seasons of Monkey Life on TV) I'm thinking chimps and other apes and monkeys might be a decent starting point, physically, for M-E orcs. Might do something about it, but as some here could attest, it might take a while.

When I saw the first rebooted Planet of the Apes film, I immediately thought that Peter Jackon's orcs would have looked a lot better if they'd been more like Tim Burton's simian legions.

[SotF]

I agree with this.  After all, Aragorn was able to drive off five(?) of them single handed at Weathertop.  Admittedly Aragorn is a powerful hero but I think this goes to show the Ringwraiths, particularly at this point, we're more sources of fear and terror than powerful fighters.

I'd assume that it depends upon when they were encountered.

At Weathertop, they were likely running fast and light...later on, especially with the fell beasts, they're likely far better armed and armored. After all, that's ready for war rather than hitting the few guards of a few inexperienced hobbits...

[Vermis]

All of the Asgard ones are still produced by Viking Forge, I think.

Ah! I was looking at Alternative Armies.

I think you can get some of them from Ral Partha Europe; Ironwind rereleased them this year too.

I knew about the old Ral Partha orcs. There's a guy on Dakka trying to create a range to fill out the gap between those and the Thunderbolt range. Didn't know where to find them, though. It looks like a few orders across the pond.

When I saw the first rebooted Planet of the Apes film, I immediately thought that Peter Jackon's orcs would have looked a lot better if they'd been more like Tim Burton's simian legions.

It was the latest two - especially the last - that helped my thoughts. (Just to prove I'm not a grouch about every movie or tv show: I loved them) Imagine this guy on the back of a big wolf instead of a horse. And maybe a little less hair. Just a little.

I'd assume that it depends upon when they were encountered.

At Weathertop, they were likely running fast and light...later on, especially with the fell beasts, they're likely far better armed and armored. After all, that's ready for war rather than hitting the few guards of a few inexperienced hobbits...

After Gandalf's explanation of what happened to them after the Ford of Bruinen, I still wonder if it had something to do with how they, or Sauron, 'clothed' them for any particular task - covert hunting vs. all out war - and whether that allowed more or less of their power to manifest. A bit like Gandalf the Grey vs. Gandalf the White.