Mordheim - pros, cons and length of play? (First ruins built!)

[Major_Gilbear]

I don’t want to derail the thread, but is it possible to play Malifaux without the profile cards sold with the specific models?

Yes, and no. Mostly no.

The rules and model cards are all free to download (link), and the game is played with deck of Poker cards (mapped to the game's own Suits, but there's a key for using a normal deck in the rulebook).

Part of the interaction of the rules calls to abilities and skills on the models' cards, and are activated in a variety of ways.

Whilst you could use the official cards and have them "count as" your own models, the structure and behaviour of the different forces would make this awkward if you wanted a different force composition than the official one.

My suggestion would be to try the rules as-is initially, and then have a go at writing your own cards, using the offical ones as a guide.

Making your own is doable, but you'll quickly find why I said " Yes. And no." above. Malifaux is a great game though, and I enjoyed it a lot.

____________________________________________

And now, we return you to your regularly-scheduled programme!

[NotifyGrout]

Fair responses. If Mordheim works for you, it works. I may be too accustomed to having a munchkin or two in my usual play group; it's probably not an issue amongst more laid back players.

Most of the more modern campaign games out there aren't as granular as Mordheim or Necromunda, and I have to admit I find myself missing that sometimes, even though sometimes the advances ended up being mostly or entirely useless.

At one point I considered an advancement system for Frostgrave that would at least allow lower-tier soldiers who performed well enough (or even survived enough games) to eventually become a higher-tier soldier, but it seemed like it wasn't worth the effort after a while.

I'd probably go Coreheim if I found people that were interested, but lately I've been fortunate to get a game of Space Weirdos in, much less something more complex.

For somewhat obscure campaign options, one of the Alkemy journals had a campaign mode that looked interesting- I have no idea if it's even online anymore.

There was also talk about an optional campaign mode for M2E at one point, but I don't think it ever happened. Malifaux could probably be converted into a campaign-style game with advances, but it would require a severely restricted model pool and probably no Masters as they'd be far too powerful. The core rules of Malifaux are excellent.

Shoot People in Space has a campaign option, and I am hoping to try that out soon. I think(?) Brutal Quest is the fantasy analogue.

[DivisMal]

@ Major_Gilbear: Thanks! That’s really a pity. There have been several skirmish games in recent years, that had innovative ideas but suffered from this approach of tying specific models (or rather cards sold with them) to the rules, that made a decent reuse unnecessary difficult. Confrontation, Batman, Bushido, Freebooter‘s Fate and as you say Malifaux.

At least THAT is not an issue with Mordheim (and strangely even not with modern GW).

@ Topic: Coreheim seems to be a much more balanced game, but I assume that only from reading the rules, not playing.
However, when it was released, the strange misogynistic background as well as the lack of fluffy rules, yeah right those that often make real Mordheim imbalancded, really turned me off.

So maybe SoBH after all?! Or what about Fistful of Lead: Fantasy? Has anyone tried it? I own the WW and SF rules, which I like, but the price tag on the fantasy stuff made me hesitate to buy the new three books.

[NotifyGrout]

For what it is worth, digital stat cards for Malifaux models are free now, as are the rules. The only books that have to be purchased are those with lore. The app is quite good, and also free.

[Hobgoblin]

Great discussion - digressions and all!

I've been interested in Malifaux from time to time, but its intricacies have always put me off in the end. As Major Gilbear indicates, it looks like you'd need to put a lot of effort in to get it to run with proxies ("Who are these guys meant to be again ... ?").

Another thing that intrigues me about Mordheim is simply the wild divergence of views on it. Some see it as the best skirmish game ever; others as a hopelessly unbalanced disaster with great background - all of which makes me want to give it a go, especially as the mechanics are so familiar.

I do think that that long statline does give it a strength for campaigns that other games lack. The refined Warhammer statline (minus Int, Cl and Wp) does have the merit of having lots of things that can be shifted up or down, all of which will have an effect in the game. So that's quite an unusual amount of stuff to tweak for a skirmish game.

Fair responses. If Mordheim works for you, it works. I may be too accustomed to having a munchkin or two in my usual play group; it's probably not an issue amongst more laid back players.

Yeah, the people I'll be playing with are fairly indifferent to winning - except in the actual excitement of the game. I expect "what looks good" to dominate the roster choices.

I'm quite excited about putting together a mercenary warband from these guys:





They're just so redolent of Warhammer's Old World (Silas Meel, etc.) - and have a lovely range of equipment, all the way from clubs to crossbows. There are also some unarmoured ones, like the slave-ogre's handlers - and the slave ogre would slot nicely into the ogre bodyguard slot.



I don't like the later, slottabased ones quite so much, but I have a couple (She-Devil and Sniper) already painted up and ready to go.



And then there's the mounted hero and Mudak's mercenary maniacs ...

Meanwhile, I've been making some more progress on buildings - conscious that any efforts here will be rewarded in Song of Blades, Rogue Planet and Pulp Alley, etc., even if Mordheim ultimately falls flat for us:

[affun]

I hope you post some pictures of the gangs when you get them together Excitedly reading along here.

For my own money, i can echo a lot of the experiences in this thread. In our group the problem was not so much the balance as what the game turned into at later stages of campaign-play.
The spiking lethality of crits, and volume of archer fire, along with punishing injury rules, meant that we ended up with very static and risk adverse games: Even if its a 1/12 chance to get crit on each shot, thats horrifying if it means you loose a troop its taken you 6 games to develop to be able to 'compete'.

It was balanced in that it was tense games that either player could 'win', but the actual gameplay ended up quite frustrating.
Funnily enough it was the same problem i have with frostgrave, in that it played out more like a wild west or sci-fi game than a fantasy game!
Cover hugging and tense line of sight checking and squad tactics to advance 

but again, its also deeply fun and as you say, genrates intense excitement!
Mordheim is in many ways a monumental and epochal game.

I dont mean to be too dour on it, so hope this post doesnt come off like that! Just sharing some experiences Regardless i am always excited to see new old world-esque warbands and terrain, and especially mordheim!
And the ruins look splendid.

Makes me want to get back to logging what im working on myself too.

[Elbows]

Just to inspire the folks who are going to give it a go, building terrain for Mordheim was probably my favourite part.

I hand-built all this stuff in about a week and a half - to be joined with the classic Mordheim houses/building that came from the starter box.  I think all the effort I put into the project is why I was so put off (to the point that I haven't played it since 2017 and likely won't play it again, now having alternatives) when the game went sideways.







I still have this terrain and use it for my other game, but it was really fun building chaotic stuff.

[fred]

Great discussion chaps!

Those original C10 Half-Orcs are great, I have a few stashed away somewhere. They never really got used that much back in the day, perhaps because they didn’t quite fit in with any of our armies.

Elbows a great set of terrain - hope it gets use for other games.

[tikitang]

I've tried using Mordheim in the past, never as a complete system (i.e. using the proper warbands, scenarios and campaign system), but as a means of playing historical Warhammer games in a skirmish format. For example, a few years ago I planned to use the Warhammer Ancient Battles profiles (particularly those from Chariot Wars) to play Biblical skirmishes, with Mordheim as the core rules system. Unfortunately I never saw it through.

I was very tempted to get back into Mordheim about a couple of months ago, this time with the idea of doing it properly. I planned to make two warbands (Cult of the Possessed and Undead) and managed to acquire suitable miniatures for both...but then I started to think about the aforementioned Warhammer "clunk" which, these days, sets my teeth on edge every time it comes to mind. That was enough to halt my plans.

After that, I quickly shifted gears to Forbidden Psalm, and so far I don't see myself looking back.

[DivisMal]

I've tried using Mordheim in the past, never as a complete system (i.e. using the proper warbands, scenarios and campaign system), but as a means of playing historical Warhammer games in a skirmish format. For example, a few years ago I planned to use the Warhammer Ancient Battles profiles (particularly those from Chariot Wars) to play Biblical skirmishes, with Mordheim as the core rules system. Unfortunately I never saw it through.

I was very tempted to get back into Mordheim about a couple of months ago, this time with the idea of doing it properly. I planned to make two warbands (Cult of the Possessed and Undead) and managed to acquire suitable miniatures for both...but then I started to think about the aforementioned Warhammer "clunk" which, these days, sets my teeth on edge every time it comes to mind. That was enough to halt my plans.

After that, I quickly shifted gears to Forbidden Psalm, and so far I don't see myself looking back.

Yeah, WAB Mordheim is a brilliant idea. You got hundreds of profiles and can play all those heroic skirmishes you always wanted…in theory.

In fact, we tried it with Bronze Age Greeks and Vikings. It was the Warhammer clunk as you called it that made the games pretty tedious, but also the rules themselves. You have to house rule so many things that it’s easier to use another rules system, like LotR SBG or SoBH, both of which are easier to convert.

What bothers me a lot with historical settings is that armor is way to ineffective. Homeric heroes all die like Achilles. With an arrow in their heel. And also swords are too expensive, so that without some more rules how to set up warbands or a GM, it’s not really fun to get clobbered by the peasants armed with clubs.

[tikitang]

WAB Mordheim is a brilliant idea...

.…in theory.

There lies the crux of it; it can be done, but it introduces complications.

The biggest issue, I think, with importing "outside" material into Mordheim, such as the WAB: Chariot Wars example I mention above, is that it creates a rules "tapestry" with threads woven in from many different rulebooks that one has to consult to execute one's specific project.

I thought, at the time, that it would be a simple question of using profiles (stats etc.) from WAB: Chariot Wars, but using the rules from Mordheim (weapons included). Sounds very simple! I only need to consult two books, and once I've written down the profiles from WAB, I only need to refer to Mordheim for everything else.

Oh, but wait a minute...which point system are we using?

The profiles from Mordheim are costed a particular way (in the Mordheim currency of "gold crowns"), but you only get the prices for the official Mordheim characters and their corresponding stats; you most certainly do not get the prices for the soldier stats you're borrowing from WAB, because they're costed in a different currency (traditional "points" rather than "gold crowns").

Okay, no problem, how about we forget all about "gold crowns" and import the points system from WAB as well as the profiles?

Okay, but how are you going to pay for the weapons? In WAB, weapons come included with a soldier's profile; you don't get to buy them separately from an equipment menu, the way you do in Mordheim. What if you want to equip your Hebrew levies with javelins? Oh, Hebrews in WAB don't come with javelins. How much do javelins cost then, so I can add them? No idea!

Okay, so how about we forget the points system from WAB and go back to basics; let's import the points system from Warhammer Fantasy Battle 2nd Edition (1984), which breaks down the cost of each stat into its individual cost AND has separate costs for weapons. Yes, that could work!

So, now we're using the points system from WFB2E, the profiles from WAB, and all other rules from Mordheim? Yes, but there's more. Remember you wanted javelins for your Hebrew levies? And you want to use the weapon rules from Mordheim? Well, did you know that Mordheim doesn't have rules for javelins... UNLESS you also import the javelin rules from the Norse Explorers supplement.

So, now, all of a sudden, I've found myself cobbling together a historical warband from:

Mordheim (three PDFs)
Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars (a physical book)
Warhammer Fantasy Battle 2nd Edition: Combat (another physical book)
Mordheim: Norse Explorers (another PDF)

And that's before I get into specialist units like Philistine giants and twin-mounted camel-riding Midianites (don't get me started on finding the exact rules for either of those).

For me, preparing any wargame project feels like walking a tightrope; keeping my interest/willpower up is a difficult task indeed and it doesn't take much for it to topple. Having to consult that many different publications to get what I want out of it (and finding myself getting muddled in the process) is guaranteed to cause frustration, which quickly leads to abandonment!

I'd rather have everything I need in one (or at most two) PDF(s)! And on that subject, Forbidden Psalm offers this, as well as warband advancements and many other aspects that have been discussed so far in this thread (such as weather conditions affecting ranged combat) all with a "grimdark" theme that is arguably "grimmer" and "darker" than Mordheim (albeit with a sprinkle of humour). It's also entirely soloable (as well as multiplayer) which is a huge plus for (mostly) secluded hermits such as myself! Oh, and there's no peculiar equipment restrictions either, and the table-size expectation (2ft x 2ft, as opposed to Mordheim's 4ft x 4ft) is much more manageable!

[Hobgoblin]

Elbows, those ruins are fantastic! Plenty of inspiration there!

Those original C10 Half-Orcs are great, I have a few stashed away somewhere. They never really got used that much back in the day, perhaps because they didn’t quite fit in with any of our armies.

It's weird - when they first came out, they had a Forces of Fantasy-style page in White Dwarf, which made them quite attractive as a Warhammer option, given the presence of up to 30 assassins, who had the advantages of elite stats, poisoned weapons and Frenzy. But that didn't survive into second or third edition, where half-orcs were essentially just humans with lower Int (from memory).

But they are such great figures! I like the fact that, despite their diverse gear, they're read to go as a unit with their skull-and-ribcage emblem.

After that, I quickly shifted gears to Forbidden Psalm, and so far I don't see myself looking back.

I'm working on the assumption that anything that can be used for one can be used for the other!

The 'Warhammer clunk' is definitely a consideration. The only justification I've ever been able to see for Warhammer's laborious sequence of rolls is that it does tell a little bit more of a story than most wargames: "It was only the chaos warriors' heavy armour that prevented them from taking casualties as the orcs unleashed their arrows ...".

I suppose Mordheim takes this a stage further, by having yet another roll if there's a wound and having even more detail: "Only his helmet prevented him from being stunned by the blow ...".

[Hobgoblin]

Oh, and there's no peculiar equipment restrictions either, and the table-size expectation (2ft x 2ft, as opposed to Mordheim's 4ft x 4ft) is much more manageable!

That's something I've been wondering: to what extent does Mordheim actually need a big table? I have a 6' x 4', but I'll obviously have terrain ready for 2' x 2' or 3' x 3' much earlier. From my experience with Warhammer, my suspicion would be that terrain density is more important than table size - which is not always the case; we've found that games of Dragon Rampant are much improved by having a full 4' of depth. But Mordheim's Warhammer-style movement is fairly slow - compared and contrast with Song of Blades and Heroes, for example.

Looking at Elbows' terrain, I can see one real advantage of SoBH in such an environment: the push-back combat outcome comes into its own when there are plenty of steep drops involved!

[LoxIslay]

If I remember correctly 3x3 is ok and 4x4 is desired.

[Major_Gilbear]

@ tikitang:

I get what you're saying, but in this instance I'm not sure I really agree.

Since combat is by individual model, and not by unit, the points for statlines and equipment are pretty consistent.  So if an average human has a statline of 4-3-3-3-3-1-3-1-7, and doesn't have much/anything by way of special rules, then we can see from those entries in the official Mordheim warbands that they normally cost 25gc.

Similarly, equipment pretty much costs the same across warbands, so that's not really anything difficult to figure out either.

In fact, the only tricky bit to do, is to work out the cost of any special rules you may have/want - but again, using the official warbands as a guide, you should be able to make a very good guess about what they should cost first time around.

The 'Warhammer clunk' is definitely a consideration. The only justification I've ever been able to see for Warhammer's laborious sequence of rolls is that it does tell a little bit more of a story than most wargames: "It was only the chaos warriors' heavy armour that prevented them from taking casualties as the orcs unleashed their arrows ...".

I suppose Mordheim takes this a stage further, by having yet another roll if there's a wound and having even more detail: "Only his helmet prevented him from being stunned by the blow ...".

Lots of the "clunk" comes from the limited way there is to add variation to the games (which is somewhat necessary of you play a lot of them). Also, whilst GW games now roll (and re-roll) buckets-o-dice even for skirmish games, the older games generally only roll 1-2 dice per model for most occasions, so you need to string several rolls together to get some wider variety of outcome.

In combat specifically, it comes from the fact that statlines each go from theoretical 0-10 scales, but then everything is determined by a D6 roll (usually a straight roll at that). So you have to cross-reference WS on a table to find out your hit roll, cross-reference again on a different table for your wound roll, and then you might get an armour save and possibly another sort of non-armour save on top of that. In Mordheim, where armour is rare and limited, you normally just carry out the first two rolls, and sometimes a critical roll too. Then, if these are all successful, you also have a roll once more to find out if you are knocked down, suffer a light wounds, or are taken out, etc.

Of course, once you're familiar with the tables, and you don't need to keep looking up model stats or modifiers all the time, the game is a lot faster to play.

I get why Necromunda and Mordheim stuck to the mechanics of their parent games' rulesets, but re-writing them into something a bit more different would have probably produced a better and faster game.

That's something I've been wondering: to what extent does Mordheim actually need a big table? I have a 6' x 4', but I'll obviously have terrain ready for 2' x 2' or 3' x 3' much earlier. From my experience with Warhammer, my suspicion would be that terrain density is more important than table size - which is not always the case; we've found that games of Dragon Rampant are much improved by having a full 4' of depth. But Mordheim's Warhammer-style movement is fairly slow - compared and contrast with Song of Blades and Heroes, for example.


Looking at Elbows' terrain, I can see one real advantage of SoBH in such an environment: the push-back combat outcome comes into its own when there are plenty of steep drops involved!

You can get away with 3'x3' if the table is denser, because movement is not necessarily linear, and LOS should be often interrupted. And generally, more terrain (and at least some variety in terrain type) is also better. Some scenarios do need a 4' long distance though (like the scenario "Street Fight" for example). Some fast and agile units may dominate more however, and with denser terrain ranged weapons will be affected in various ways too (so the Long Rifle will be less useful, but the blunderbuss or sling more so).

And, I suppose it depends on what your terrain is actually like too. Ruined buildings, 1-2 stories above ground level, and arranged in some semblance of streets and alleys, and with some walkways between here and there and a few ladders or stairs inside buildings, is how the game was designed and playtested. If your terrain is sparse, or randomly plopped onto the table, or is more like an adventure/assault course with walkways and ladders everywhere, then you may well get different results.

One more thing to think about too - as players' models gain experience over the course of several games, they will become more reluctant to risk them on "unnecessary" manoeuvres that could result in death or injury. So fewer and lower jumps/climbs, avoiding high walkways or ledges, etc., unless they have a skill to assist them in that activity.