Lead Painters' League Season 5 Rules

[Bugsda]

Are my Zulus non-combatants if I don't glue the spears on?

[Westfalia Chris]

Are my Zulus non-combatants if I don't glue the spears on?

Given their military system and training, I would think every Zulu male would qualify as a combatant, regardless of whether or not they are armed.

But to expand that example, if you were to paint King Cetshwayo on his throne, with a gaggle of wives and those Swedish (?) mercenaries from "Zulu" barely hiding their discomfort at his heathen ways, that would be a very nice one and certain of my vote.

[Froggy the Great]

...

Don't make me come over there...

[Muskie]

I still got a few weeks.  I must have some fall back minis that are eligible...  I think I'm going to largely ignore the bonus rounds as what I own is what I'm going to be painting.  I predict a lot of GW models, Chaos and Goblins mostly, plus maybe some space ships and pulp stuff plus say a group of WW1 Canadian Infantry men for the historical fans.

I'm not trying for 10 new teams, I think I need at least two weeks for a group of five.  I still wish it was groups of four as that is what I'm used to...

Oh well, gotta clear out some backlog too before I can start on stuff for this competition.  When in doubt paint goblins.  ;-)

[Admiral Benbow]

Increasingly so....
Just take 5 (or more) minatures, paint, photograph, repeat 9 times. Its not rocket surgery.  

Thanks for that very clear statement, Overlord. It's astonishing (and a bit boring) what people are asking this year about a simple set of rules for a FUN painting competition.
 

[D@rth J@ymZ]

Browsing through the archives from Season 1-4 also can provide clarification for how the spirit of the LPL rules are intended.  The rules are very simple; just look to what others have done in years past for various entries (including themed bonus rounds) They also provide some good inspiration!

[Tomsche]

Or adopt a mental state of not looking at it as a competition, but as a charity event dedicated to your piles of lead (resin, white metal, plastic etc etc).  In my case, at least 50 models will be worked on and finished out of 3000+ to go 

[Red Orc]

I'll apologise right now to those who aren't doing this, because not everyone is by any means. But some people are and I think they need to think about what they're doing.

I don't often get irritated by posts on LAF, but I have to say I am finding insinuations that people asking for clarifications of the rules are either stupid or somehow trying to cheat a bit annoying. I don't think that people who have entered before making somewhat snide remarks about those of us who haven't, is very much in the 'spirit' of either LPL or the Forum as a whole.

I think Captain Blood so far has explained the rules very simply. The problem though isn't that the explanations aren't simple, it's that the rules are not clear and logical.

Sure, those who have entered before know what to expect. The rest of us who are contemplating entering for the first time are trying to find out how things work. Perhaps it would have been better if we'd gone back over the old discussions about rules. But even doing that problems remain. The stipulations for entry seem inconsistent. From the rules:

Painting

All figures must be completely painted, and all bases must be finished. We ONLY accept pictures of finished models, ‘work in progress’ (WIP) shots are NOT allowed.


... groups of figures which have not been shown before, either here or on other internet forums. You can enter ‘old’ teams if you like - but if they’ve been pictured online or in print before - no bonus points.

So, these figures -



- cannot be entered as a 'New Team'. Fair enough. But they can't be entered as an 'Old Team' either. I have to do more work on them because at the moment they're not elligible for entry as they are WIP. But despite the fact that I have to work on them to be able to enter them, any work I do will not count as 'new'. That doesn't really seem to make much sense to me. They are neither an 'Old Team' (because they're WIP) but they're not a 'New Team' either (because they have been published, even if it's in a condition for which they wouldn't be allowed into the competition).

Captain Blood asks 'where would we draw the line?' if it was allowed to enter previously seen minis. I'd suggest a more logical place to draw the line would be 'at the point it constitutes a legal entry for the LPL'.

The rule and its interpretation as they stand may be simple, but they are neither immediately clear nor logical.

Then of course there's another problem about pictures:

You are NOT allowed to post pictures of your team elsewhere on the LAF while the team is active in the LPL.

What if pictures of the team (eg this one) are already on the LAF? This isn't in the rules about new team bonuses, it's about elligibility of entries. Do I have to remove existing pictures from the LAF to have this entry considered? Or does this rule only count if I re-post pictures during the week of the competition? Or, if the entry is re-submitted in another round, the weeks it is submitted? Or all weeks between the begining of the first and the end of the last week, if I submit it in two or more non-consecutive weeks?

Because any image that contains recognisable images of members of the team is counted for the purposes of finding out if it's a 'new team', the WIP shot (even though it isn't a 'team' in terms of elligibility) can't be re-posted, if the rule about photos is consistent with the rule about new teams (of course, it might not be, it's not clear).

The simple explanation would be that I can't repost either that picture, or the new (not-WIP) picture, of the team, while the round(s) that I've entered with the team are running; but pictures I've already posted are fine, and posting a picture elsewhere on LAF during round 2 if I enter them for round 1 and round 3 for instance is OK. That's what the rules say anyway.

Again, open to a simple interpretation, but not either clear (because multiple interpretations are possible) or logical (because if the idea is that no images of the team exist outside of the comp, then why are images already posted allowed?)

[Mancha]

I am finding insinuations that people asking for clarifications of the rules are either stupid or somehow trying to cheat a bit annoying.

I have some sympathy for your view, Red Orc.  People want to paint what they want to paint - so what?  Others may be trying to figure out if their original and interesting idea will fit into the rules - hear hear.  I don't think these cases should be treated as attempts at rules-shirking.  Let's view them instead as attempts at generating new ideas. 

[Captain Blood]

It's okay to ask questions about the rules. That's why the thread is here. If there's something you genuinely don't understand - ask.

I'd suggest a more logical place to draw the line would be 'at the point it constitutes a legal entry for the LPL'.

I don't think this means you don't understand the rule, Red Orc - I think it means you don't agree with it.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But the rules aren't going to change. No one is forced to take part.

You are NOT allowed to post pictures of your team elsewhere on the LAF while the team is active in the LPL.

What if pictures of the team (eg this one) are already on the LAF?

Fair question - although you surely understand the intent of the rule?

If a contestant has a picture of a team in the LPL, it would not be fair to his opponent if he were allowed to post supporting pictures on another board. If however, he had previously posted pictures of the figures concerned, and subsequently entered these in the LPL, then that's allowed. In fact people have frequently entered teams composed of figures they have previously shown on LAF. So the rule is exactly right as it stands: You are not allowed to post pictures of your team elsewhere on the LAF while the team is active in the LPL. This may not seem 'logical', but the strict letter of the rules is secondary to the intent. And the intent is clear.

At the end of the day, it's probably possible to find fault with the letter of every rule. But the spirit of the rules is not going to change so it's really not worth trying to unpick them.

[Prof.Witchheimer]

Red Orc, Mancha..You two shall try to put yourself in the shoes of a LPL mod. We told often enough it's lots of work to make the league and the only reason we're doing - we're trying to generate some fun and to have some, too. It's fully understable if one mod is getting annoyed by the countless questions about how-I-manage-this-and-that. That's not a job, a mod doesn't earn any money, a mod only spends his personal time. Please try to understand that.

Red Orc, to the rules. Well, I'm impressed, you've put a lot of power, time and written words and split every hair to show us the gaps in the rules. Thank you. But I'm still of opinion the rules are good enough for this world and this forum. They did work in LPL1-4 and they will work in the LPL5. I won't change them. I just haven't enough time for that. It's a little fun contest, not World Cup or Constitution.

It's not the first time we're talking about the LPL rules. Every season it's another member who's discovering the fact that the rules are not-good. But it's me every time saying, these are my rules on my forum and they won't be changed.

Feel free to ask if you don't understand anything, we will help. But try to be positive and find a way to live with these rules. Just find the serenity to accept the things you cannot change

[Pil]

rules questions

If it's any help, here's my interpretation of the wording of the rules and your questions:

So, these figures - cannot be entered as a 'New Team'.

Correct, new is "never seen before" and by the time the league is underway we have seen these before.  That said, they can be entered as an old team and since they're civilians and propbably going to be entered in round 1 is doesn't matter, since round 1 has no bonus for new teams.

But they can't be entered as an 'Old Team' either. I have to do more work on them because at the moment they're not elligible for entry as they are WIP.

Correct, they need to be based. If this is your basing style and you consider these finished you could enter them as an old team (remember, this is my personal interpretation).

But despite the fact that I have to work on them to be able to enter them, any work I do will not count as 'new'.

Correct, and captain blood explained this before: where do you draw the line? Well, the line is drawn at "never seen before". If the line was drawn at "some work has been done since they were last seen" I could just repaint the bases of my previous entry to claim a 'new' bonus round after round. That's not a lot of fun for the viewer and not really the intent of a "paint a team a week" idea of the LPL. If you want to enter old models it's still fine of course, it's not the end of the world to not get the 'new' bonus.

What if pictures of the team (eg this one) are already on the LAF? This isn't in the rules about new team bonuses, it's about elligibility of entries.

I think captain blood and the professor clarified this: just don't post pictures of your team anywhere while they are competing in a round, not here, not on other fora pimping your entry. In previous LPL3 (the only one I so far contended in) I was always eager for the round to be over so I could post my entry on other fora

The simple explanation would be that I can't repost either that picture, or the new (not-WIP) picture, of the team, while the round(s) that I've entered with the team are running; but pictures I've already posted are fine, and posting a picture elsewhere on LAF during round 2 if I enter them for round 1 and round 3 for instance is OK. That's what the rules say anyway.

Absolutely correct!

Edit: provided you entered an old team you could even post a lot of pictures before the round they were featured in asking people to vote on your entry. I doubt it will give you a lot of extra votes but you could. That said, these rules are of importance to new entries, which a lot of the entries are.

Again, open to a simple interpretation, but not either clear (because multiple interpretations are possible) or logical (because if the idea is that no images of the team exist outside of the comp, then why are images already posted allowed?)

I think there is a big difference between 'eligible for the comp' and a 'eligible for a new team bonus'. I could enter a new, or old picture of my undead army (plug):
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=25017.0

It would be eligible for the competition as it's a fully painted, based team. It's just not new so I wouldn't get any 'new' bonus points. Heck, I could post a picture of the whole army as an entry and it would be eligible for the competition, just not new.

That said, it is my experience that people tend to bias their votes to newly painted models (ooh shiny!), but of course what's old to you maybe new to someone else. If you finish these figures you may not get the 'new team bonus' (remember, there is no 'new team bonus' in round 1), but you still have something shiny to show the fellow adventurers!

Anyway, the idea of the competition to me is to paint a lot of models on a deadline in ten weeks. There is nothing to win and a lot of people enter, so it just means you can get a lot of stuff painted every week and you get to see a whole bunch of eye-candy every week!

[Ray Rivers]

Just find the serenity to accept the things you cannot change

So sayth the Master to the grasshoppers.   

Let's get some perspective.

I joined the LAF to participate in the last half of LPL2.  Back then, that was allowed.  I then participated in LPL3.

Here is what I learned.

The LPL is not a horse race.  It is not about favorites, be that individuals or themes.  It is actually not even about winning.

That is because the LPL is not a horse race, it is a marathon.  And like a marathon entering into the LPL is a personal challenge.  Now you will notice in a horse race, everybody is yelling for their favorite to win.  But in a marathon, be they first or last, everyone receives cheers of encouragement and clapping in approval.  On lookers do that because they realize that a marathon is not about winning, it is about making it to the finish line, because just to get to that finish line requires a person to give everything they've got just to get there.  In fact, in every marathon that I have seen, the folks at the back receive just as much encouragement, if not more so, as those in the front.

Now of course, in the end, one individual will win the LPL.  But I really encourage everyone to look much deeper into the contest and understand that the majority of those who enter do so not to be number one, but to put themselves to what can only be called the ultimate miniatures painting test.  As such, negativity has no place in this competition.

Just like any marathon, we all need to be clapping and cheering ALL those folks forward.  Because when you participate in the LPL, you enter into a grueling contest of self will.  A contest of highs and lows.  A contest which, when you pass that finish line, you sit back and say "I did it."  And the immense sense of self satisfaction you feel at that point, you will never forget.

On a personal note, I did not participate in LPL4 because I was so exhausted after LPL3, that I just couldn't bear going through that again.  But I have stated here on the forums that if I can get three teams ready before the start date I will join in once again.  I must be out of my mind!  But the challenge... the challenge, gentlemen, is so daunting, yet so alluring... it's not about the points, the score, who wins or loses (cause I will never win).  It is about making it to that very, very distant finish line.

Cheers and good luck to all!

[Pil]

Ray, your entries were insane, how many models did you average per entry, something like 12? 

[Calimero]

Can I advertise the figures I intend to present in the LPL in the Bazaar before and during the LPL? Can they count as new team if I don’t post pictures of them in the Bazaar but only provide pictures (by PM or e-mails) to those interested? If not, I’ll simply try to present "entirely new" figures in the LPL…

Cheers