Mordheim - pros, cons and length of play? (First ruins built!)

[DivisMal]

@ tikitang:

I get what you're saying, but in this instance I'm not sure I really agree.

Since combat is by individual model, and not by unit, the points for statlines and equipment are pretty consistent.  So if an average human has a statline of 4-3-3-3-3-1-3-1-7, and doesn't have much/anything by way of special rules, then we can see from those entries in the official Mordheim warbands that they normally cost 25gc.

Similarly, equipment pretty much costs the same across warbands, so that's not really anything difficult to figure out either.

I think, tikitang (and I) were referring to the difficulty of translating WAB profiles into Mordheim without going through all this trouble. In my experience it’s rather time consuming and doesn’t really give the feeling you had hoped for. Plus: there is s lot of stuff in WAB for which Mordheim simply has no equivalent, like for instance large shields, thrusting spears, javelins etc.

[Citizen Sade]

That's something I've been wondering: to what extent does Mordheim actually need a big table?

While 4’x4’ is recommended for one-on-one games & 6’x4’ for multiplayer ones, smaller shouldn’t be a problem. I wouldn’t go less than 4’x4’ for multiplayer games involving more than four warbands though.

Looking at Elbows' terrain, I can see one real advantage of SoBH in such an environment: the push-back combat outcome comes into its own when there are plenty of steep drops involved!

Yes, though Mordheim’s initiative test for models knocked down or stunned near an edge adds some risk to going high.

[Hobgoblin]

While 4’x4’ is recommended for one-on-one games & 6’x4’ for multiplayer ones, smaller shouldn’t be a problem. I wouldn’t go less than 4’x4’ for multiplayer games involving more than four warbands though.

Yes, that makes sense.

Yes, though Mordheim’s initiative test for models knocked down or stunned near an edge adds some risk to going high.

Ah - I'd missed that! I see it now, and I like it - great rule. The initiative test in general seems to be one of the real innovations in Mordheim that distinguishes it from Warhammer (along with the injury charts). I suspect it may be the direct ancestor of SoBH's quality test.

[tikitang]

I think, tikitang (and I) were referring to the difficulty of translating WAB profiles into Mordheim without going through all this trouble. In my experience it’s rather time consuming and doesn’t really give the feeling you had hoped for.

Exactly this.

Trying to make Mordheim work with Warhammer Ancient Battles, for the purposes of historical skirmishing (which so far is my only experiencing of playing Mordheim), sounds like it could be a great idea, but actually involves a lot more fiddling about than I'm willing to engage in, particularly if you obsess over exact point values and the use of the exact stat-lines of the various soldier types as published in the various WAB supplements.

However, if you ignore WAB entirely and just use the warrior profiles already included in the Mordheim book (and their respective cost in "gold crowns"), but then use models from whichever historical period you fancy, then yes, that would be a much easier way to play 'WABheim', I suppose, though personally wouldn't satisfy me as much as successfully incorporating WAB material, providing one has the patience to undertake the complicated method already outlined.

there is a lot of stuff in WAB for which Mordheim simply has no equivalent, like for instance large shields, thrusting spears, javelins etc.

Javelins are included in the Norse Explorers warband supplement, but that's yet another PDF to consult. I know that's not a big deal to some, but I really don't like having to pull so many different rules from so many documents.

But, it's important to stress that all of the above is only an issue when attempting to import aspects of other Warhammer rulesets into Mordheim, which I suspect is a rather niche activity that I'm not sure is particularly widespread. In terms of playing the game as written, which a small part of me would still quite like to attempt some day, my issue there is mostly:

[1] the clunky rules [models spending most of their time standing around trying to roll 4+]
[2] the inexplicable restrictions of certain weapons to certain factions [a problem with Warhammer in general ever since 4th Edition came out in 1992]
[3] the suggested play area [4ft x 4ft filled to the brim with multi-level buildings is just too much of an ask for somebody in my particular circumstances]

In my experience, a better (but very old-school) solution for skirmishing Warhammer than Mordheim is using the Combat rules from page 115 of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st Edition (1986) as a standalone skirmishing system, without using any of the RPG components from the rest of the book.

To do this, you simply take the profiles of models you wish to fight with from Warhammer Fantasy Battle 2nd Edition Battle Bestiary (to ascertain the point values), translate them into Roleplay mode using page 213 of the Roleplay book, set up a 1ft x 1ft play area (yes, literally that small) and have at it. I would describe these rules as "crunchy" rather than "clunky", though they do take a bit of studying to fully comprehend, and the old 1980s text format makes that a bit more challenging. Although that does require a bit of brainpower to execute, particularly in comparison with more modern streamlined rulesets, it doesn't feel like as much work as trying to compile a cohesive set of rules from multiple sources, like the WAB/Mordheim method I described earlier.

That said, given the particular pressures on me for time, space, and mental energy, I'd still opt for a simpler, more modern system for my grimdark skirmishing needs!

[NotifyGrout]

Some of the things that helped reduce bad experiences in O.G. Necromunda vs. Mordheim, in my mind:

- Armor was very rare, so armor saves were almost never an issue.
- No facing issues, so no flank and rear modifications.
- Almost everyone had a gun, so keeping to cover, sneaking into position before shooting, and so on felt right, as opposed to what Affun described earlier.
- The base game was innately pretty balanced, since outside of skills all of the gangs had access to the same stuff. Sure, Goliaths and Cawdor lost out a bit due to one or two skills not being very useful in Strength and Ferocity, respectively, but not enough to make too much difference.
- Barring a couple of specific, easily house-ruled abuse options (Scavvy cannibalism; Redemptionist flamers-on-everything), the Outlanders gangs weren't overpowered, either.

I imagine a Mordheim game with all human factions (or a WAB conversion) would probably be closer to my Necromunda experiences.

[Major_Gilbear]

Trying to make Mordheim work with Warhammer Ancient Battles, for the purposes of historical skirmishing (which so far is my only experiencing of playing Mordheim), sounds like it could be a great idea, but actually involves a lot more fiddling about than I'm willing to engage in, particularly if you obsess over exact point values and the use of the exact stat-lines of the various soldier types as published in the various WAB supplements.

You might like to try the skirmish rules from WHFB 6th core rulebook then (which were later expanded on a little and released as their own free supplement PDF IIRC). 

It's basically Mordheim-lite and is designed to build forces directly out of existing army books; it mostly details how to select the forces, and how to adjust the core rules to suit individuals - everything else, like weapon rules, unit profiles, etc, is all taken directly from the rule and army books. So I'm pretty certain you could use that as-is for WAB, with no conversion necessary.

Of course, it's a skirmish game only, so I don't think there are any rules for levelling up models (at least, that I can remember...). Since it's the levelling-up that usually breaks these games anyway, you may want to skip that and just have a series of linked games instead, a bit like a mini-campaign.

[tikitang]

You might like to try the skirmish rules from WHFB 6th core rulebook then (which were later expanded on a little and released as their own free supplement PDF IIRC). 

It's basically Mordheim-lite and is designed to build forces directly out of existing army books; it mostly details how to select the forces, and how to adjust the core rules to suit individuals - everything else, like weapon rules, unit profiles, etc, is all taken directly from the rule and army books. So I'm pretty certain you could use that as-is for WAB, with no conversion necessary.

You're right; it's basically Mordheim without the special weapon rules, warband progression rules, and without the specific Mordheim warbands.

I actually tried that one before, but found some of the Psychology rules confusing. I made a thread about it on LAF at the time (this was some years ago) and I remember everyone saying: "Just use Mordheim!" 

[Pattus Magnus]

I played a WFB Skirmish match yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. The host took a Skaven force and I played a vanilla chaos warband using his figures. Pretty much all low level mooks on both sides, with one hero, one wizard and one special figure on each side. Neither side had archers, but that might not have mattered as there was lots of terrain. Quality won over quantity that time but it was a fairly close match. It was a fun afternoon, anyway!

[mweaver]

Love the terrain!

In the context of the discussion of game rules, what does "granular" mean?

I think one reason we were never much bothered by some potential imbalances between Mordheim warbands is that after the first two or three years, we mostly played collaboratively.  It was a blast.

-Michael

[DivisMal]

Love the terrain!

In the context of the discussion of game rules, what does "granular" mean?

I think one reason we were never much bothered by some potential imbalances between Mordheim warbands is that after the first two or three years, we mostly played collaboratively.  It was a blast.

-Michael

Playing cooperatively solves most of the issues discussed here. You can have a great time fighting endless hordes of zombies and trying to solve a mission.

Granularity: many modern rule sets eliminate the statistics to the absolute necessity; Somg of Blades and Heroes or A Fistful of Lead, for instance have just two stats, Dracula’s America even just one. The rest is solved with special rules. That works very well in one off games.
In a campaign, however, when you want to slowly progress from a band of nobodies to mighty champions. Mordheim allows some skills and advancement in M, WS, BS, S, T, I, A and Ld.

[Hobgoblin]

Well, the one-shot ended up not going ahead (instead, we played Cards Against Humanity - the family version! - with my kids until the early hours). But there's a good chance that the same players will be around for a full day's gaming in the summer. Meanwhile, we've got a six- or seven-player campaign scheduled to kick off once the Six Nations is out of the way.

I've been doing a lot more delving into the rules, and I generally like what I see. In particular, I like the initiative tests (which neatly make Skaven agile and orcs/goblins clumsy and hapless) and that spellcasters roll to see what spells they have for a given session. I'm also quite impressed with the weapon rules: the pros and cons of spears, greatswords and flails (for example) all seem quite neatly balanced, even if they don't always make much real-world sense (in that typical RPG way).

I'm not sure about the dual-wielding advantage, but on the other hand, your chance of causing an extra wound isn't that much different from the chance of a shield blocking a wound in a typical exchange (1 in 4 chance of a wound, assuming no armour save vs 1 in 6 chance of a save). Factor in armour in melee and the protection a shield offers against missiles, and the shield isn't that that undervalued, comparatively, I feel - though I see that some people increase the shield save to 5 or 6, which might be something we consider later. We'll start 'rules as written', though.

I've also played out a few little clashes during coffee breaks to familiarise myself with the combat rules. Despite all the rolling, they seem quite quick to resolve, and I can see that they throw up tactical choices that didn't occur in Warhammer (e.g. finish off a downed foe or deal with one who's still standing.

I do think WYSIWYG is going to be a big factor in avoiding min-maxing in our campaign. A review of my Skaven suggests that almost none have no armour (and the few slingers certainly do) and none have clubs. The orcs, meanwhile, are almost universally armoured. Even finding unarmoured goblins (to conform to Mordheim equipment options) is proving harder than expected! But I may finally have found a use for the odd goblin fanatic that I have in the leadpile!

[tikitang]

finding unarmoured goblins (to conform to Mordheim equipment options) is proving harder than expected!

I assume you're referring to your own collection here?

[Hobgoblin]

I assume you're referring to your own collection here?

Yes - I'll be able to muster enough without problem eventually, but it's amazing how many classic Citadel goblins are sporting a mail shirt at the very least. I'd have no problem fielding dozens with light armour and shield!

[tikitang]

But unarmoured goblins can certainly be found quite easily online if your own collection fails to yield anything.

Miniature Heroes sell a range called Mannequin Miniatures featuring goblins who are armed but not armoured (many of whom are even shirtless) and of course Foundry/Warmonger do a decent range of goblins all clad in the classic HeroQuest fashion of an open waistcoat and a pair of shorts!

[The Bibliophile]

Out of interest, what skirmish system would you recommend as a good alternative specifically for the campaign aspect?

Thud and Blunder. Came out a couple years back. My group organized a 4-6 player eight-game campaign around it and I thought it worked great for building warbands and advancing them over the course of the campaign.