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Author Topic: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread  (Read 1290104 times)

Offline Cubs

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11475 on: June 05, 2021, 01:03:02 PM »
Wonder if the classic high hat will reappear - it would at the very least deserve a cameo appearance.

They could take a cue from 'Cat in the Hat', and have a pile of successively smaller Chaos Dwarves hidden under the hat, each wearing another hat that conceals another Dwarf.
'Sir John ejaculated explosively, sitting up in his chair.' ... 'The Black Gang'.

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Offline Vanvlak

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11476 on: June 05, 2021, 07:59:22 PM »
They could take a cue from 'Cat in the Hat', and have a pile of successively smaller Chaos Dwarves hidden under the hat, each wearing another hat that conceals another Dwarf.
Now I have a vision of  matrioshka Chaos dwarfs... or rather, hatrioshaka  ;)

Offline Bloggard

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11477 on: June 09, 2021, 04:06:02 PM »
I'm seeing some concern about the colour scheme chosen for the hob-goblins on other forums (tga etc) and I think rightly so, for reasons I've alluded to in other threads here.

otherwise I think they're very well done, on their own terms. kind of like the sort of pickelhaube helmet-y thing the hobs seem to have got going.

then I start seeing the media for a lot of their recent 40k product - books and figures. And I have to shake my head at the staggering far-right fetishism that it's very hard not to read into the 'good guys' presentation (I had kind of hoped they were getting away from that sort of thing, if in a subtle way).
If it's accidental it's horrendous.
If it's not accidental ... well, then ...

Offline Mammoth miniatures

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11478 on: June 09, 2021, 06:45:00 PM »
I'm seeing some concern about the colour scheme chosen for the hob-goblins on other forums (tga etc) and I think rightly so, for reasons I've alluded to in other threads here.

otherwise I think they're very well done, on their own terms. kind of like the sort of pickelhaube helmet-y thing the hobs seem to have got going.

then I start seeing the media for a lot of their recent 40k product - books and figures. And I have to shake my head at the staggering far-right fetishism that it's very hard not to read into the 'good guys' presentation (I had kind of hoped they were getting away from that sort of thing, if in a subtle way).
If it's accidental it's horrendous.
If it's not accidental ... well, then ...

40k is suffering from flanderisation - The more time passes, the more black and white the setting gets. Annoyingly there's still lots of interesting stuff in the  novels (guilliman being disgusted at the imperium is a cool idea) but GW seem to be leaning too hard into the idea of "good vs Bad" , possibly to appeal to a more general audience?

Offline Lost Egg

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11479 on: June 09, 2021, 07:12:54 PM »
I wonder if the reliance on good vs. bad is also to prevent any major upheaval as neither side is going to come out on top. Whereas exploring the shades of grey, such as Gulliman's disgust of the Imperium and the religion centred on the Emperor would inevitably lead to massive changes. No matter what GW says they don't really want to upset the status quo too much, especially after what happened when fantasy was replaced with AoS.

Offline Bloggard

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11480 on: June 09, 2021, 08:46:37 PM »
I don't want to go on ... it's not the place for it I guess.

but ... basically I received a warhammer community newletter highighting a new 40k novel featuring 'Gaunt's ghosts' or some such ... and the illustration ... well, blimey. Pic doesn't seem to be on the main GW website, which is  a small mercy.

I do remember (I think) reading an interview with Rick Priestley where he says (effectively) that the imperium and space marines weren't supposed to be good guys ... but as far as I can see they became so pretty early on. And ... well, as I say, with some of the recent AoS stuff I had hoped GW were moving on, and at a rather important time to be doing so, with the socio-political currents which are swirling all around these days.
But apparently not.

Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11481 on: June 09, 2021, 09:51:22 PM »
I haven't paid much attention to 40K's background since the first book, but I thought it was always clear that there were no good guys. Isn't that an essential part of the whole 'grimdark' aesthetic?

I mean, the Imperium is a vast, totalitarian empire with an Inquisition, fanatical bio-engineered super-soldiers, commissars, slave-soldiers with exploding collars and hierarchies based on racial purity (poor old beastmen at the bottom!). It's a bit of a stretch to see them as 'goodies'!

Two significant influences on the background bear this out: Judge Dredd, where the judges are only good guys if you miss the satire (or sometimes on a relative basis); and Dune, whose empire and sardakaur (the originals of the Adeptus Astartes) aren't 'goodies' either.

I suspect you can trace the 'no goodies' theme right back to Laserburn, where you had sinister Imperials fighting equally sinister Redemptionists (and a very clear Dune inspiration for both).

Offline Cubs

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11482 on: June 09, 2021, 10:24:15 PM »
It's just factions innit? Each is following their own agenda, only 'allying' with other factions if it serves their short term purpose. The Space Marines just happen to be the coolest faction for most people (with a myriad of chapters, each their own flavour, look, weaponry and agenda) and the cornerstone of the whole 40K game. I always though it was a given that 40K was meant to be a more mature setting than the fantasy world (ironically, this might be why younger gamers sometimes find it more appealing), with its imperial pomposity and xenophobic doctrine laced with lead-heavy irony. It's a worry that this might be taken at face value by some or presented as a worthy cause, but I guess it's not always easy to write relatable characters serving something utterly hateful.

Offline jetengine

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11483 on: June 09, 2021, 10:38:44 PM »
I haven't paid much attention to 40K's background since the first book, but I thought it was always clear that there were no good guys. Isn't that an essential part of the whole 'grimdark' aesthetic?

I mean, the Imperium is a vast, totalitarian empire with an Inquisition, fanatical bio-engineered super-soldiers, commissars, slave-soldiers with exploding collars and hierarchies based on racial purity (poor old beastmen at the bottom!). It's a bit of a stretch to see them as 'goodies'!

Two significant influences on the background bear this out: Judge Dredd, where the judges are only good guys if you miss the satire (or sometimes on a relative basis); and Dune, whose empire and sardakaur (the originals of the Adeptus Astartes) aren't 'goodies' either.

I suspect you can trace the 'no goodies' theme right back to Laserburn, where you had sinister Imperials fighting equally sinister Redemptionists (and a very clear Dune inspiration for both).

We're living in a world where Rick and Morty is ludicrously popular, with 90% of the fanbase not realising the main characters are horrible people.  People can't discern the protagonist from hero and satire is pretty much dead.

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11484 on: June 10, 2021, 08:03:08 AM »
Bloggard, I hear you mate. I feel the same.

EDIT: I deleted the rest of my original post as I believe I may have gotten too political.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 08:14:34 AM by Rick W. »
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Offline Lost Egg

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11485 on: June 10, 2021, 10:59:16 AM »
I haven't paid much attention to 40K's background since the first book, but I thought it was always clear that there were no good guys. Isn't that an essential part of the whole 'grimdark' aesthetic?

I mean, the Imperium is a vast, totalitarian empire with an Inquisition, fanatical bio-engineered super-soldiers, commissars, slave-soldiers with exploding collars and hierarchies based on racial purity (poor old beastmen at the bottom!). It's a bit of a stretch to see them as 'goodies'!

Two significant influences on the background bear this out: Judge Dredd, where the judges are only good guys if you miss the satire (or sometimes on a relative basis); and Dune, whose empire and sardakaur (the originals of the Adeptus Astartes) aren't 'goodies' either.

I suspect you can trace the 'no goodies' theme right back to Laserburn, where you had sinister Imperials fighting equally sinister Redemptionists (and a very clear Dune inspiration for both).

I think 40ks grim darkness is kinda hollow beyond the visuals nowadays...it's become a bit sanitised in some ways. I don't know if that was a deliberate decision or whether it was a slow process as more and more people in the studio just don't seem to get it. I guess GW becoming increasingly commercialised has contributed too...maybe its a mix of all three. It's become a bit too slick.

Offline Bloggard

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11486 on: June 10, 2021, 12:41:33 PM »
I haven't paid much attention to 40K's background since the first book, but I thought it was always clear that there were no good guys. Isn't that an essential part of the whole 'grimdark' aesthetic?
 ...

as I mentioned re: Rick Priestly, that may well have been the original intention - and theoretically, the 'nuanced' understanding of the presentation, if you read the right (excuse the word) stories etc, may still pay lip-service to that.
But it seems pretty clear to me that there's a cruder understanding that can be arrived at all too easily, and GW do little with their imagery and spiel to discourage it imo.

fun fact that many of you probably know - the old GW headquarters 'look', before they swapped a space marine statue for a stormcast thingy one (and quite probably even since the swap!) ... local taxi-cab drivers referred to it as 'the bunker', as in a well-known hidey-hole from WW2.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 12:56:09 PM by Bloggard »

Offline Bloggard

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11487 on: June 10, 2021, 12:54:37 PM »
Bloggard, I hear you mate. I feel the same.

EDIT: I deleted the rest of my original post as I believe I may have gotten too political.

yes, GG - prob. not the place for such discussion - but then maybe it should be, the way things are going.

bit suprised by the replies I'm reading, tbh. But I guess I should take some heart from them, and hope they're not wilful naivety, and I'm being OTT.
I'll leave it there.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 01:01:18 PM by Bloggard »

Offline jon_1066

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11488 on: June 10, 2021, 01:53:55 PM »
I'm seeing some concern about the colour scheme chosen for the hob-goblins on other forums (tga etc) and I think rightly so, for reasons I've alluded to in other threads here.

otherwise I think they're very well done, on their own terms. kind of like the sort of pickelhaube helmet-y thing the hobs seem to have got going.

then I start seeing the media for a lot of their recent 40k product - books and figures. And I have to shake my head at the staggering far-right fetishism that it's very hard not to read into the 'good guys' presentation (I had kind of hoped they were getting away from that sort of thing, if in a subtle way).
If it's accidental it's horrendous.
If it's not accidental ... well, then ...

I know this has moved on slightly but 40K has always been from the very start a satire/dystopian view of humanity with an overtly fascist Imperium. 

I really don't think the higher ups at GW are pushing a fascist agenda on the gaming world.  The fascism in the setting is a deliberate choice, not to propagate that view as a system with utility in the current world but as a setting.  Kind of like how Warlord are not neo nazis for producing SS minis and the makers of Mad Max don't want to bring about a world where people have to fight for petrol dressed in S&M bondage gear.

Offline jetengine

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11489 on: June 10, 2021, 02:54:47 PM »
I know this has moved on slightly but 40K has always been from the very start a satire/dystopian view of humanity with an overtly fascist Imperium. 

I really don't think the higher ups at GW are pushing a fascist agenda on the gaming world.  The fascism in the setting is a deliberate choice, not to propagate that view as a system with utility in the current world but as a setting.  Kind of like how Warlord are not neo nazis for producing SS minis and the makers of Mad Max don't want to bring about a world where people have to fight for petrol dressed in S&M bondage gear.

I dont think its intentional, but the problem is your mixing a public that can't infer that the protagonists (ie: the impetium) can also be bad guys, whilst the head office wants to steamline it into a very easy to sell product.

 

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